SPEAKER_02 1:17

If you're enjoying this channel, I need you to do me a great favor. Yes, I do. I need you to subscribe to the channel. So if you can, just click the subscription button because it helps us to give you more great content. How's that? You hit the subscription button, I give you more great content. Deal? Deal.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Agents would actually piss off casting director. I have a lot of casting director friends that would say the same thing. You're playing the mood of it, and it doesn't work. No one's going to look at that headshot and go, I'm going to bring this person in. You know, it doesn't. What we want to see, and I used to say this all the time, it's not going to hurt your career. It's going to, in fact, make it better in a lot of ways, a lot of deeper, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Hey actor, welcome to Acting Smarter Now. I am your host, Lydia Nicole, actor, producer, and your acting career coach, dedicated to helping you break through the noise, own your craft, and take your career from undiscovered to unstoppable. And I have a question for you today. Do you know what it takes to be a working actor? Do you know what you have to know in order to have your brand up to par? Well, you're in for a big treat because today my guest is the one, the only actor extraordinaire and branding guru himself, Mr. Mark Atterberry. Oh my goodness, we have such a great conversation for you. So without further ado, let's go to the interview. How do you use branding to get you booked?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

That's a really good question because here's where I think branding, branding is fantastic for marketing. But in terms of the actual booking, I think acting is a little stronger in that area. So branding can be used because what you do is when it comes to marketing yourself, you you want to be the go-to actor for such and such. I think if you can get to that place, then you are going to be a booking machine on a marketing level. But talent is the thing that gives you longevity. So to me, there's a differentiation there between the two. That said, I think it's really important that you understand a couple things. Number one, what categories you're going to fall into naturally, because we do typecast here, and you want to know what is my type, because that does help you to, like I said, focus your marketing and be able to hone in on what you do best. Then once you know your categories, then you want to stick out from your categories. So then you look at what makes me unique and different than everybody else. And once you know that, then you can kind of focus on the things that make you different, and that helps your bookings even more. So it's like, oh, he's a really good dad, but look at he's got a really sensitive heart. He's also got this ability to go to those deepest, darkest places when needed. So, and he's an emotional sponge. So there we go. Now we're getting kind of specific in terms of the in terms of the marketing itself. But like I said, and then talent comes into the next place, and talent is what makes that role pop, and it's what gives you longevity. So putting those two things together to me is what makes you actually a really booking actor. But branding is very, very important in this town because of typecasting.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Let's park the car at typecasting for a minute, because I know when I started in the business many, many years ago, uh, over 46 years ago, that word, typecasting, was like a dirty word. It was like talking about somebody's mama.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

But but the truth is, in order for an actor, well, I believe, in order for an actor to be successful, they have to find a category that they fit in so that industry can recognize what they do. That it's it's not the bad thing actors uh see it as. It really is a useful tool. What would you say to actors who uh really despise that word?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

We know that I mean you and I kind of come from the same roots. We kind of come from a similar area. You you got into it earlier than I did. But it just seemed when we were in classes and we were studying acting, it was about the art. It was about mastering the craft of acting. And I think that's still accurate. I think the importance of that is still as strong as it ever was. But we didn't want to be typecast because we thought we're actors. We can do I did a play where I was a six-year-old boy and an 80-year-old woman in the same play. So, and I think I've got that ability. I've got the ability to see myself from you know A to Z as an actor. But the problem is the industry doesn't see that. You know, no matter how hard I work as an actor, how much I train, how much I want to master this craft of acting, I still have to accept that the industry is still going to see me much more limited than I see myself. And that's difficult to do. Now, the great thing is I think once you're in a particular role, especially if you get in a TV show that lasts for several years, you can start to show all kinds of new sides to you and it expands your character. So you still have the ability to do that down the line. But now that we have influencers that are known for one thing, now that the word branding has been thrown around so much in the last maybe 15 years, uh there's not much we can do about that. It just is the way it is. You know, it's the it's the way the business runs. Ironically, you know, we go way back to remember the Academy Players Directory back.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Oh, of course I do.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

So we had, remember, but we had three categories, we're still categories, but we only had three categories of, you know, we were leading man, leading woman, or ingenue, young leading man, and we had character or character. And so you had to kind of figure out which character, which at which category you were in. Even then, I remember thinking when I paid my $25 fee, I think it was, and sat there in the academy office, it was like, really? I want to be stuck in this category for like ever, you know. So I think we've always been fighting, and I think people still fight it. I people think that I still see online all these people and even cast directors I've said that go, I cast outside the box, don't limit yourself. But, you know, when you want a cop, I'm sorry, a fireman to run into a burning building to rescue a small child, you are not gonna cast the nerdy, wimpy, skinny guy. You know, it's just it comes down to believability and it comes down to what people accept in storytelling. You want the guy that's been through it, that's gonna run in and be heroic and you know save the baby's life. So no matter what, it's gonna happen. And it's just a matter of us of how do we accept it, how do we take it. I love typecasting because, in a weird way, once I was able to go, oh, this is my ballpark right there. So if that's what I am gonna be cast as, I'm gonna put all my focus there. And I think it helped tremendously in terms of me like going, I don't need to take a stand-up comedy class. If I want to expand myself, sure, go ahead and do that. I don't need to take, you know, certain other things. I can really just hone in. I even know, you know, I work much more in drama than I do comedy or commercials. You know, I started it was more commercials, more comedy, but now it's like drama. And I like that because it sort of goes, Oh, I don't have to worry about all these other things. I can really just hone in and and focus on what I can do best. So it's always a battle. We we still we still want to do those parts that you know are way outside of our realm.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Well, you just you hit on something earlier in um talking about being in a play where you got to be a six-year-old kid and then an 80-year-old woman. Yeah, I think theater loans itself to being able to do that. You have more flexibility of uh it's not about typecasting as much as it really is about believability. Are you believable in that role? However, in in TV, in commercials, in film, it is a lot, it has a lot to do with typecasting. They're looking for your essence, they're looking for it's not what you what you believe you could do, it's what you you you said this a while ago. It's branding is what people see you as, not what you see yourself as. And I I think that is something that actors have to embrace.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

It is.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

If I think I am uh the leading lady and everybody sees me as the goofy one, I'm not gonna play the leading lady unless she's the goofy one. That's not gonna happen. And you go going back to um the Academy Players Directory. I remember one year putting myself in all three categories because I was like, I don't know what what they're gonna look at. So I need to make sure I'm in everything. And I think that's um that is the pitfall of new actors as well as older actors, because we we feel so desperate. We feel like we we don't have a say in it. So you know, the more we can uh put ourselves in different categories, the more opportunity we have, which is a lie.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

So tell us why it is a lie. If if I'm putting myself in all these categories, what does that do to my bookability?

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Well, here's the thing, I think the problem, the biggest problem, I think, is is when you do that, you're gonna look like an amateur. I think professionals understand, you know, where what what their ballpark is, like I said. Um when I was a headshot photographer, when I was getting into this, I shot headshots and uh was number one in LA at one point. When I was doing that, I got to know a lot of agents in town. And here's the thing the top one-quarter agents, I think, get it. They understand the business, they understand how it works, they understand the marketing side of it, they the branding side, all of that stuff. And they understand that talent gives you longevity. It's not really necessarily what they need to find initially. They do need to find castable types. But the bottom three-quarters of agencies, I think, don't get it. And these agents would actually piss off casting directors. I have a lot of cast director friends that would say the same thing over and over. It's just like, you know, why are they sending that person for this role? They just look like idiots, you know, and they call it the spaghetti. It's like throwing spaghetti against the wall, hoping that one piece will stick. So let's throw our entire cast list out at this particular breakdown and see who sticks. It doesn't work that way at all. You know, you want to be a professional. You want, I know what I do. I do the same basic thief, three things over and over and over in my career. I'm not gonna argue with that. It's made me some good money, it's got me good exposure. You know, I love it. Yes, I want to try to go outside the box, and if I can, and occasionally I get to, then fantastic. But you want to be a professional actor, you want to be perceived as that. And at some point you just go, Oh, yeah, no, I get this is my wheelhouse. I'm in it. Let's do it. You know, you want to cast me as that over and over and over? I'm in. So, like you said, I mean, I wanted to be James Bond, like you know, you wanted to be the leading lady. I I love James Bond's films, that's why I got into acting. But it's I'm I'm not gonna be James Bond. I'm just not gonna be it, no matter how hard I try. I might be a villain if I'm really lucky, a guy you don't expect it, but wow, that's the villain, you know. Who knows? Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 12:46

You could be 005 if you if you hire yourself and shoot it yourself. You could be double oh five.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

I do believe um in in that um in that thing of knowing your knowing what it is that you really excel in. What is your special sauce, and making sure that you convey that to the agent because I think a lot of actors get in a lot of trouble or get so confused because they're listening to the uh agent saying, I need 10 different pictures, I need that 10 different headshots of you. Yeah, but you don't you don't portray those 10 characters. That's not what you do, and maybe none of them, maybe you fit none of them. You as the actor have to know what it is that is in your wheelhouse in order to serve the agent's job best, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:45

That's true, yeah. It is true. And it's they are not the expert in you, you're the expert in you. Nor is a casting director the expert in me, nor is a director the expert in me. So, and I have to know who I am and what I do and what I bring to this particular project or this audition or whatever. And that's why I think we as actors go wrong sometimes. I I certainly did it when I was younger. You know, now I understand it. It's just like I say no a lot to auditions, and and people will think that's really stupid. It's not. I know full well what I do well. And there are things I know it's just that this is not right for me. And if I were in this role, I'd be uncomfortable. It's not going to serve the part correctly. Or morally, I mean, I'm a person, you know, I went to seminary, so I tend to be fairly moral. Um, there are certain things, in fact, it just happened recently on a huge, huge show. Um, I I flat out said no because I'm not comfortable with it. I'm just not morally comfortable being the shock value of that particular show. And and and, you know, being the guy that's gonna do, oh wow, wow, I saw you did that. You know, that's not me. I'm not a shock value part of a show. You know, I can bring plenty of other things to other shows. So I don't have a problem saying no whatsoever. I think that's where the strength comes to us as actors. You know that you know, look, I know what I do really well, and I'm gonna do it because I love doing it. It's comfortable for me. And also I think it serves this storytelling business that we're in. I've got a perspective that only I can bring, and I think it serves particular stories very, very well. So I think that perspective helps us quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

I love what you said about turning down auditions. So, um, and I want to bring this up because I think it's important for actors to hear it. Now, when I was younger and I knew what I sold, and and if I went in on something that was totally outside of what I did, I would tell the casting director that. I said, you know what, I'm not right for this, but I do know who is right for it. And a couple of times I got in trouble because they took it as an offense. How do you uh talk to your rep when they submit you? Because we hear, we hear that thing of, you know, if the agent got you an audition for something, you really need to show up. What is the proper way to do it um to let the agent know that you are not right for that part? And and it's not that you don't want to go up for it, but you would be wasting everyone's time.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah. As they've gotten to know me, it's gotten easier and easier and and they know flat out I'm gonna say no too. One of the things is I I I have a broken back. I've broken my spine three times in my life, and last time was pretty severe. So I've had 11 surgeries in 10 years. So physically, I can't do certain things anymore. And they know that, but at first it was kind of like, are you sure you can't do this? I think you might be able to do this. It's like, no, I do know my safety things. And I think just the confidence I have in myself to say no, um, I think they respect that. I have I recommend this to all actors. If you can sit in with your agent or your manager uh from time to time when they're interviewing other actors and watch what other actors do and say, because 99% of the time they're placating, they're just trying to please and say the right things, and you know, they've done a ton of research online to figure out what that agent does and likes and whatever, and you know, they'll try to present that where the one that kind of sits in and just is like, doesn't care, just perfectly comfortable with who they are, is the one that really sticks out from everybody else. And that's the one we go, oh, that's gonna be a great actor right there. Because what ends up happening is uh you'd be shocked too. I I've also sat in the room with my agents and managers when they're dealing with a present client, and the present client is an absolute jerk. And I was like, why are you keeping this person on your roster? And it's just like, well, you know, they they do book, and you know, and and I like I like them overall. I know they can be a jerk, but and that was eye-opening to me to go, okay, I'm not a jerk, so I'm never going to be a jerk to my manager or agent, but they're okay with it. They're okay with at least being confident in yourself. You know what I mean? I will never advocate being negative on any level whatsoever. I think bringing positivity to this business to, you know, look at look at the look where we are now. The business is way down, and you know, it's a tough time. I think bringing positivity to that and to others is the greatest thing we can do. So I'll never advocate being negative. However, I do think it's perfectly fine to just say, this is who I am and this is what I'm comfortable doing. I don't like to veer from that uh because of this, whatever reason. And eventually they start to respect that more and more and more, and you become kind of the go-to actor. I have a friend, uh uh Corey, he's he directed, uh, wrote and directed Hoodwinked, which is probably 20 years ago now, somewhere around that. But it was a it was a huge hit. So he wrote this thing, got funding, put the cartoon together, and then put it all together, and then Miramax bought it, and they kind of screwed him over, but it put Corey in the map because Hoodwink made 300-400 million dollars.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Um, but it's animated, and Corey always wanted to do live action. So all of a sudden, his name was out there everywhere because it was a great film. I mean, I really did a great job. And Spielberg actually called him at one point and goes, Corey, when you do a cartoon. He says, Yeah, you know what? I'm a live action guy. I did the one, I'm really glad I did. It was really helpful, but I'm I'm just not interested in doing another cartoon. And he said he thought that was, he like hung up going, I just think I just killed my career, I think I just ruined everything. And he said, out of nowhere, he got all these calls because people wanted to know who says no to Spielberg. I want to talk to that guy, you know. So, in a weird way, it's sort of advanced his career, it kind of put him on the map a little bit. And I've always sort of respected that. And I think that's how we that's how we handle it. You know, it's just you as an artist need to know what you do really well and be in love with that. It's like Pollock, you know, I throw paint on a canvas and it just goes in these patterns, and I love it, and it's just a great expression of me. And people look at it and go, wow, that's stupid. But others will actually go, okay, that's a great piece of art. So, and that's what we're looking for. It's the people that gravitate to us. You got to be really proud of that. Regardless of what the agent or manager may say, if you're proud, then they start to become proud. You know, that that becomes infectious. That's why I say I won't ever be negative, I'll always be positive. It's like, no, no, no, it's nothing personal. It's just like, you know, this is what's important to me. I can't jeopardize my health, or I can't jeopardize my morals, or I can't jeopardize, you know, the fact that I'm really honing in right now on this. I I think that gets gets a lot of respect from people.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

To tie in what you were talking about is not just being positive, it's being a team player. Um, you've worked on a uh several Shandaland shows, and one of the things that I heard uh Shonda Rahme say a long time ago on an Oprah interview was that she learned from getting burned by talented actors who were not fun to work with, that what she was what she started looking for, how she changed her perspective of of who she wanted to be on her projects were actors who played well with each other.

SPEAKER_04 22:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

And I think that it's more than being positive, because I've seen some actors play positive, but they're really jerks. You know, they they'll and and having been in front of the camera and behind the camera producing stuff, I've been in the waiting room uh getting some stuff done when actors were coming in to audition for us, and I heard some vile things uh said by the actors. And then when they got in the room, they changed. And I was in that room, and when they left, I said, Yeah, they're not gonna work because they were not that person downstairs. They were ragging on our project and talking major stuff about it in a negative way. So I think that um uh, and I want to tie that into something else you said in that you have standards. I think it's important for actors to have standards and be confident with it. It's like, no, I will not do nudity. No, I will not do a character that is uh that is demeaning in a certain way because that's not who I am. You have to stand for that. And I and I do believe that you have to tell the agent before you sign, these are my must um haves and my can't stand and will not do. I will not do this, I will not do this. If you're comfortable with that, we can work together. But a lot of times actors are so afraid that they're gonna miss out or no one will sign them, that there's a fear, which brings me to something you you mentioned the last time we talked, and that was about being a people pleaser. Yeah, I want to talk to you about what you've learned in your career that has broken you from that. Hey, actor, where are you gonna be in 90 days from now? Is it gonna be with that same old headshot that is not getting you anywhere? That same old story that it's everybody else's fault while you're not booking? Or even worse, depression. Nothing is happening for your career. Well, let me help you. Because in 90 days from now, you can have a whole new set of pictures that are built on your brand. You can have a list of agents that actually would fit what it is that you sell and a plan to have a more prosperous career. Listen, I cannot book you, but I can make you bookable. So if you are ready, willing, and excited to change your circumstances, come and join us at ActingSmarterCircle.com. Sign up and get started. We're a weekly community that helps actors get in gear and get the career that they deserve.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

I think part of it comes from when I started out, it was just I I think my mind was set on, okay, what are the rules? How do I, how do I, how do I act? Uh okay, how's the business work? Okay, how do I submit to an agent? Okay, what do I say in an agent interview? Okay, you know, and I go to classes and whatever I could get to kind of figure out the rules. And at one point, it kind of hit me that, oh, there are no rules. And that helped me to kind of kick over, I think, into a little bit more confidence. And the minute I did that, everything sort of changed. Um, I've told this story a few times in different forums, but it very briefly, one of the biggest things that happened to me is I don't know that I want to say the show or anything. Um big casting director called me in for a big show for a big part. And it's actually last time we did it, I was growing my hair out for this.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

I remember.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah, I had that horrible scraggly hair, but it was it was all for a role. So when I was called in, um, it resonated with me as like, okay, the character is uh on the spectrum, he's autistic. The care, and I have two autistic uh family members. The he's from small town. I lived in a town of 69 population, and then a town of 4,000. So I know small town. And he's out in the wilderness, he's uncomfortable with big society, all kinds of stuff. And he murders somebody. They don't know if it's a purpose murder or an accidental murder, and you know, it that's that's what drives the whole story of the whole thing. And so I went in and I knew this inside and out. There were two scenes there was a monologue and a five-page scene. And so we did the the main casting director normally would be in the room for these parts, and she wasn't in there, and it was uh someone I didn't know. And so I had a reader and I had a uh a person who was also uh running the camera. And so did the person running the session said, You have any questions? I said, No, I'm ready. So she said, All right, let's do the monologue first. We did the monologue, got to the end, and she said, Huh, yeah, that wasn't that wasn't so good, was it? I was like, What? And then I laughed, I thought it was a joke, and she said, she said, No, no, no, no, seriously. Um, first of all, and then launched into this whole tirade of things that she wanted different. And the first was, you know, you're not even looking the reader in the eye. And I was like, have you been around autistic people? I didn't say it out loud, I'm thinking in my head, but if you've been around autistic people, it's like that's an issue. They don't, they struggle with that, that connection. And then several things that told me she has no clue who this character is. And at one point, I even said in my mind, I was like so upset by all of this. Like, you know what, you're a failed young actor sitting in this room as an intern or whatever, running a session, feeling this is your place of power. That's what I said to myself in my head. And I'm like, I don't care what you think, I don't. I know this character inside and out, I know what I'm doing, and I'm completely comfortable with it. And I knew that she would have probably no say in if that tape went to the director or not. So we did it again. And in fact, there was one terrible piece of advice she gave, and I actually looked directly at her to show her how stupid that was on that particular line, and did it in a creative little way. And then we do it. She's like, Okay, can we do the scene, please? Can we do the scene? And then we launch into the scene. She goes, Thank you, thank you. And I left and I booked that. And it was on the set because a director who I had worked with once before was like, Your audition was miles from everybody else's, like just miles. And I'm like, because you have a terrible person giving terrible direction in the room. And I guarantee you, had I not had that switch in my head, I would have been trying to please like I would have earlier in my career, or like a lot of people, and I would have gone, okay, okay, let's do it that way, let's do it that way. But it destroyed this character, and this character ultimately got me a tremendous amount of attention and even an Emmy buzz. You know, I got studio submitted for Emmy consideration, and even that helped. So that would have never happened had I have not had that moment of confidence. And I think that was things like that along the way really opened my eyes. Stage is really good too for actors for that reason. Because eventually it's your medium, it's just you and the other actors in front of night after night after night, of and you start to go, oh, oh, this is this is my interpretation. This is me and the audience. Let's, you know, I think that helps as well.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

I'm assuming at that time when you did this audition that you had already been acting for quite a while.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

A while, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Confident in your craft at that point that you could say, mm-mm, this is what it is. There are a lot of actors out there who they're starting out and they get that kind of uh feedback and it destroys them.

SPEAKER_04 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

It just they leave with their uh tail between their legs, and that's it. They're ready to give up. What would you say to that young actor who sees the role in a certain way that they really do believe it's supposed to be like this? And now someone has given them feedback that could destroy them or could make them fight. I I would say probably 90% of those actors get destroyed because they're assuming the casting director is the end-all be-all, or the casting assistant, more the casting assistant than the casting uh director, because a lot of times the casting director is so seasoned, they've been doing it for such a long time, they know how to give um um guidance to redo it. Yeah, what would you say to the actor?

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Well, I think in auditions uh you do it your way. I just think it's that simple. We don't really have in in-person auditions anymore, theatrically, certainly, almost never. Uh, maybe on a Zoom, Zoom from time to time.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

But and then you you can more callbacks, more callbacks, right? The zooms are more callbacks.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Yeah, and we don't even get as many callbacks as we used to. I mean, they're they're booking series regulars off of the first self-tape, which shocks me, but it's it's true, it happens all the time. I've done it, you know. I've several friends of mine have been booked off a series regular, off one single taping. So uh yeah, it's it it doesn't happen as much as it used to, but for that initial audition, and even if it is your Zoom callback, you take it and do it the way you want. And then they will give directions sometimes because maybe it needs it, and it's something we don't know about in the character because it's just in our small little breakdowns, it nothing shows that. Or we don't know the ending and where they're going. Uh, so that may give us more information about the character, or other times, if it is just bad direction, sometimes they'll also do it just to see if you can take direction. So I'm okay being told, and like going back to what you said too, is filmmaking particularly is a huge team effort. It's and it is the team, then you've got to have that team attitude. You do. And sometimes that we have no idea what the director is going to do in editing. So sometimes you can start to go, okay, I have to trust that they know where they're going and what's going to happen in editing, and I'm willing to go along that that bust. But I do think it helps us to stay strong in what we believe in. I don't want to throw that out the window ever. You know, don't get negative, don't argue with a director on set. That that could be catastrophic. I I worked at Fincher, David Fincher in Gone Girl, and you know, he's brilliant, brilliant director. And it is true what they say about him. He does a thousand takes, you know, hundreds sometimes. And so, but taking that journey with him is a blast because the first 25 takes is all me. That's this is what I bring to the role. Once you're done with that, you have nothing. And you're going on this roller coaster ride with him to see, okay, let's do that, let's try that. What about this? What about that? And it's amazing. It's such a great experience to be able to do that. TV and film, TV, yeah, we don't have time on TV to do that sort of thing. But the team attitude is great to keep, but you do you are the author. Who said this? Some famous director said this. He said, You are the authority of the character, I'm authority of the overall vision. And I think that's a good attitude to have, you know. I am the authority, I'm willing to play and try. Yeah, and let's just see what can come out. But I am the authority in the character, and be willing to be flexible.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

That's something else that I I've heard you talk about. Yeah. Is every set you go on is going to be different. Some will be restrictive, some will be very fun. Let's just have fun. Some are very um uh determined that you say every word the way it is written.

SPEAKER_04 34:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Some will allow you flexibility. How do you, as an actor, take that spirit in with you wherever you go, knowing that you worked on the character, you did all your work, and now you have to let it go and trust the process in whatever um in whatever box they're putting it in.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yeah. I I great acting is doing a ton of homework and then letting it all go when the scene starts. And just now we're gonna see where it goes to, and that is the best attitude to have. It's like I've done everything because it shows up. If you've done the homework, it does show up. Not worried about any of that stuff if you've done the homework, but it is that new thing that is exciting, and I think that's that's positive for me. I can't tell you how many times I've had actors well, they'll complain because they they really want just my head here, like even above the chest. They want a super close-up shot. And I'm like, I can't, I've only got this far. To me, that's like, oh, that sounds like a challenge. Let's do it. You know, I you got to have that attitude. I'm I'm really blessed and lucky, and that I've got a mom that's like the ultimate optimist, you know, and she's her, it's always like, pull the big bro panties up, we're good. There are worse situations out there. That's how I was raised, and I that's helped me. Because if you want to say, I uh you've only got this having a camera lens right there, I mean, literally right there. And I cannot move, I've got to stay on this one little thing. It's like that's gonna be a challenge. Let's do it, let's see what I can do with that. I think that attitude is what makes the difference. But I think we have to, you know, to be that team member. You just you have, but again, you are the authority, but it's like, all right, let's see if I can do it within this challenge. That's that's to me is a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

And it reminds me of one of our our teachers' favorite things to say is what a Roy London, who always said, you know, you do the work, do you know, know it inside and out, let go of them of the material, throw it away, have fun.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

But then when you're on set, you're always, you know, use whatever it is they give you to create the character, to create what it is that you want to go for the win, right? Even if it's just, even if you're in a a very tight shot and you gotta, you gotta deliver it. You don't, you can't be flailing your arms or whatever it is you're doing in a master, you have to deliver it right here. So it makes you stronger as an actor and to enjoy those challenges. I I uh uh jumping from that to curb your enthusiasm, you talked about not really having a script and having to improvise. And Larry David kept throwing things at you now. Add this to what you have to do, add this to what you have to do. And I've seen actors completely have meltdowns on set because of that. Uh, share what your process was.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Well, I started an improv. That's actually one of the first things I did as I got involved, and so that's where that paid off. And the great thing about improv training is you have to just trust your instincts. If you try to think through what would be funny or what would be next, or it doesn't work. But if something's thrown at you and you just automatically go that direction, it's uh that's how it works. It's all instinctual. That's the best thing about improv training, and why I think every actor should have some improv training. But yeah, but a challenge on that level of with Larry David and and uh and that whole show and and everyone around me. I mean, there was such good talented people. Um, it is fun, but it is scary, it truly is scary. But you just got to go with your instinct, you just have to trust it. You know, I think I think that is what I got most from Roy is the just be yourself and just trust it. Those two things were probably the things I I got most from that. And that trust is not easy to do as an actor. You know, we we get scared. And so, but if you just trust, it will actually show up. And this is why I do emphasize all the time with actors, it's like do the homework, make sure you know everything inside and out. So when you get to that place to throw it all away and just be yourself and just see where it goes and follow the curve, um you you know it's gonna come out okay because you can trust that that's true. It's hard to trust if you've done no work and haven't really put much into acting.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

I think that's also big if you're just working on the lines. The lines are it's the first layer, but it's not the last layer. So learn the lines, get them out of your system, and then start layering in the character. What do you want? How are you going for what you want? What do you want to win at? You know, that's the big thing is you've got to strive for something to win at. If you've already set yourself up to lose in the scene, there's there's nothing to watch. You've already given up before you start. Even if you are losing, you gotta keep trying to win. You gotta keep, you know, that's a Roy thing, that's an Ivana Chubby thing. It is uh it's so funny. I I just um I interviewed Ivana uh about a year ago. And um, oh yeah, I had so much fun with her. Yeah, um, because I started with her. So, you know, she used to, I used to go to Ivana when I couldn't afford Roy.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

Right, great.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

When I couldn't afford Roy to coach me, Roy would say, go to Ivana for this one. Save your money, go to Ivana. So um, so it was great interviewing her, but it what I loved was I got to reread the book, The Power of the Actor. And this time, and it was, I don't know, maybe uh I read it when it first came out. I I did all the the highlighting in it, but I read it again, you know, 20 years later at least, uh 15, 18 years later, and I saw it from a different perspective because as I read it, what it showed me was hey, this is the actor's art of war. You know, the art that it is about war. When we are acting, we are in war. We are going, we're trying to get whatever it is that we need to get. We are fighting, we are, we are pulling out every uh trick in the book that we can to get the win. And so I just and and I heard you talk about how that really affected you, Ivana's teaching of going for the win. Yeah. And I just thought, what a wonderful, um, what a wonderful tool to have in your toolbox, right? So you're not just um you're not just uh doing the lines, but but you're committed to winning in the scene. And so it I just love that. I just wanted to bring that up.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

This is true in headshots too, because the thing is, is audience members, we want to see people overcome unovercomable obstacles. Like that's why we go to big storytelling is to do that so we can feel like we can do that in real life. And in headshots, people would come. I have a phrase that I talk about all the time in acting and in headshots everywhere in the arts. Mood spoke backwards is doom. Don't play mood. It is doom. So people would come and they would be, okay, my agent really wants a victim shot. So, you know, I'm gonna like, I'm not gonna wear makeup for this one, and I'm just gonna kind of, you know, maybe rub my eyes a little so they're a little bit red. And it's just like you're you're playing the mood of it, and it doesn't work. No one's gonna look at that headshot and go, I'm gonna bring this person in. You know, it doesn't. What we want to see, and I used to say this all the time when I was shooting people's headshots for that, is we want to see you overcome obstacles. You are just a good person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's every procedural out there, every Chicago fire, every Grey's Anatomy, everything. It's people in the wrong place at the wrong time that all this horrible stuff happens to, and the team's got to come together, and we by the end of the episode have to win and achieve. You know, we have to get through this. And that's true with us as actors in our headshots. You know, you've got to come in. It's like my victim can't be, oh I'm gonna die. You can't, nobody no one wants that. And so if you come in and go, I know it's terrible, but we are gonna get through this, we are gonna make it through this. That's a great headshot. And it used to stick out even on that level. But I see actors doing on set too. It's like, oh, don't play the mood. Don't play the mood, don't don't fall into that trap. Play the win. You're gonna get through this, you're gonna be amazing, you know. That's that's what we as audience members want to see, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:23

And be in the moment, right? Be in the moment. But you there was something that you used to do in in headshots, and that was you direct it, you were talking about how you know, as you were shooting, you were talking about, okay, so what do you want here? What do you want here? Which all goes back to the eyes. You you you are very big on showing what it is that you want in the eyes, which reminds me of what we were just talking about earlier: that if you have a very tight shot, how is it showing up in your eyes? Yeah, because if I turn down the volume of that thing, I need to know that there's truth in your eyes.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

You know, that's something that Roy used to also say to us was watch something you like, turn down the volume and watch it again and see if it still has the truth to it. Because a lot of times we watch something the first time and we're wow, that was really great. But then you watch it again and you go, oh, that wasn't that good. It didn't hold up, and it didn't hold up because there was no truth to what the actor was doing. And you are really, you were really big on making sure that it was in the eyes. Yeah, and so as an actor, how does one um how does one act through the eyes?

SPEAKER_01 44:52

It's all about chemistry, it's about your chemistry with other people. And you know, you brought up the word essence before. Essence is so important to us as actors. What is our essence? What do people feel when we're in their presence or when we're talking to them? And generally that's portrayed through chemistry. It's mostly, mostly personality qualities. That's really what essence is. So, and that's what we cast by because again, there's a lot of people in your category that can do this role, but we're gonna specifically go, oh, I like that personality, I like that essence, I like that. Let's see what that does in this role. So you have to, as an actor, have chemistry. And even in headshots, you got to have chemistry with someone in the lens. You know, it's it's I I play again a lot of dads, nice guys, supportive one is one of my categories. Um, in that, I specifically would develop chemistry with the camera lens because I would see someone on the other end of the camera and go, you know what? I really adore you, but don't you ever do that again. You've hurt this relationship by that behavior. Don't. Okay. Things like that get chemistry and brings my personality and how I handle it. I play a lot of authority figures, doctors, lawyers, you know, people that have expertise in something or billionaires. That's all about confidence. I do this my whole life. I've done it every single day. I know what I'm doing. Trust me in this. Trust me. That's what I'm looking for. That chemistry, that chemistry with something in that lens shows who I am and my essences. So the way to go about all of that stuff is just develop real chemistry. When you're on set, do the best you can to develop real chemistry with the person opposite you. Even if you can't stand them and your character loves them, find something in them. Find something in them that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

But even that, uh, Mark, is a wonderful thing to have because it still creates uh energy, right? It's still it you're not being middle of the road, you're not being blind. Land. There are sparks flying. As you were talking, I was thinking about the movie Jennifer Lopez did with George Clooney. They hated each other, but yet the dynamic on camera was wonderful. It was just electrifying. So it doesn't matter if you don't like the person or if you like the person, but it's got to be intense. However way, you know, it's got to be intense. And you there was something else that you talked about regarding actors that uh some actors the camera does not like.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Yeah. The camera doesn't that's a tough one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

And how so in that, because I I mean, I remember early on in my career that there were actors that I knew that were uh women and men that were either very gorgeous or stunning looking uh men, but they read boring on camera. The camera, it was like it repelled them. It was like, oh no, we don't like her. And then I then I knew other actors or know other actors who were very plain looking, but when they got on camera, oh my God, it was like, wow, the camera just went, I love you, I love you. How can an actor with all the with all the training you have had from doing headshot photography and working on different sets? Yeah, is there is there something that actors who don't read well on camera can do to change that a little bit? So they're not repelling.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

There's nothing you can do if you are, because I agree with you 100%, and that was always my favorite thing to do as a headshot photographer, is like, because I started in the film days, you know, back when we still shot on film. I had no idea what it was going to look like until I saw the proof sheet. And it would be so fun to go, oh, they look amazing, you know, or oh, wow, they're kind of playing. I was not expecting that because they were so incredibly gorgeous in person. That I don't think we can do anything about that, but that's playing only into the beauty note. What we can play into is a beautiful human being. Because there are people, even now, I can name a few stars I think of that they're not that really great to look at. Um, and I don't mean ugly, I just mean it's not like their image jumps off the page at me or off the screen at me. However, their attitude and their chemistry, like I said earlier, and just the power that they have is intoxicating sometimes. And that's what we can control as actors, and that really comes down to just concentration and really developing chemistry, like I said. And you got to get to the place to where you love that challenge, like we were talking about earlier. You know, I I did, I worked, I won't say anything about that. I worked with an actress that I just don't like at all. Um either, no, I just find, and actually, she was a love interest. So the only thing I could find was she had the same lips as an ex of mine who I just love deeply. And it was like, oh, I can focus on the lips. And I was, and it kind of created this sort of thing. This is like, is there a way to be for me to challenge myself to obsess with those lips so much that it turns into this really intriguing thing? And it did seem to work. It was for a pilot that never got picked up, I think fortunately. But you know, that was the the camera, the final screen test for it. And I'll never forget that, but I loved the challenge of it. When it was all done, I was like kind of proud of myself. Like, I did that. I like developed chemistry with this person that I just don't like. So, as you were kind of talking about earlier, I don't know how you do that for season after season on a TV series, but um, I think as an actor, that is something we do have control over. How people perceive us. We love confident people, so that's something you can work on as an actor, even if you're incredibly insecure. Like honestly, almost every actor I know is very insecure. It's part of what drives us to do this stuff. You develop that confidence. I like to put it on before I step on set or in an audition. It's like, you know what? I got this on set. I will literally, I've said it a couple times just jokingly, but like, hey, everybody watching me, you all watching me, this is out done. Y'all watching? I mean, that's not me. That is not Mark at all. But sometimes I'll put that on. So you can develop that confidence. I think also that real chemistry, people love uh they love vulnerability and they love that ability to connect because they do think the person cares. You can work on that, you can authentically uh care about the person across from you. You can work on that vulnerability of just like, you know what, I see your pain, and I have that pain too. We can connect on this level. You know, all of that stuff I think is very doable and usable for actors to make your image a lot more intriguing.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

So you talked about a couple of things challenging yourself, going for the win, knowing your essence, and um finding that joy. You didn't talk about that in in earlier, but you have talked about how to come in having fun, finding the joy. You know, we as actors, uh something I heard, I was listening to some of your interviews uh earlier, and um one thing that I think is important for actors to know is that you always have to bring the joy, the fun, the childlike stuff. You you talked about how when you were a kid, you used to uh do little shows in the barn, and yeah, we had a big pay barn at Grandpa's Ranch.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

And you would also get your friend and you would do readings of plays, and yeah, that you had a love for it before you even came into the business.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

I think that is so crucial in this business that we love what we do. That it's not about, you know, we want to make money, we want to have success, we want to do good work, but we also have to love it, especially in those times when you are going up for auditions six, seven, eight months, maybe even a year, and you don't get anything. Or worse yet, you book the job and get fired before it's completed.

SPEAKER_04 53:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

You know, and I think I think most actors who have been in the business for a long period of time, we've all been fired from something. We've all, you know, I've been fired twice. So I I know what that is. That you know, that that it comes with the territory, but you don't abandon shit because you know you were you were wrongly cast in something. A lot of times it's they that you weren't cast properly, or sometimes, which happened to me, the lead actor, uh the the lead, I won't call him lead actor because it wasn't really an actor, but the lead of the the show was so insecure that anybody he felt was doing better than him, they were gone. And we were working on the pilot, and it was it must have been a cast of 10 of us, and I saw how he was systematically going after each actor. Like, you know, one day it was so-and-so, then the next day was so-and-so. And so they kept bringing in new people because he didn't like any of them. And I remember lasting for 10 days, and then he came, he came in on me. He says, Her lines are funnier than mine's, her seat is bigger than mine, her desk is bigger than mine. I was like, All righty, here we go. And I remember the prop department uh being uh uh exaggerating. So when he said her desk is bigger than mine, they came and brought me a kindergarten desk to sit in. And so, but that you're gonna have those things come up in your career. You talk about longevity, that's gonna come up in your career. How you handle it is important. So, how did you handle the first time you got fired from a uh a job?

SPEAKER_01 55:06

Uh it's just it's really funny. I had a conversation recently with an actor, and he he he got a role, and it was his first role, and they actually flew him to uh the the East Coast and sat in his trailer, and apparently his scene came and went, and he walked on to set going, what's going on? And they were filming, and they had actually brought in an extra to do his role. And the poor guy was devastated. He's like, Well, you know, I'm that's that's my line. It was one line, but that that's my line. And they said, Oh, we didn't we didn't know they actually brought an actor out for that. There was like this big communication problem, and the poor guy was so devastated he didn't know how to handle it. And it's really hard to say, you know what, it's just how the business is, it's just the nature of the business. I'm gonna get the things, I'm gonna be on screen when I'm meant to be on screen. It's just that simple. I trust that process. That's that's God's territory, not mine, you know? And I think part of it is just kind of accept that that it is part of how it works. Nobody knows what they're doing when we put things together and we just hope it falls together nicely. And that, again, is just how it works. So you just got to accept that that's okay. I got fired once, one of mine was because I'm dyslexic, I'm highly dyslexic. I don't read well, and it was comedy, and they gave us, you know, the script, uh, brand new script, and I'm just like, oh crap. And as I'm reading through, of course I'm not gonna be funny because I don't read out loud at all. I'm terrible at it. And by the end of the day, I got the notice that, you know, yeah, you've been let go. That's hard. I what can I't change my dyslexia. I wish I could. I work on it, but I can't change it. Like there's nothing I can do about it. So you just accept that that's not meant for me. That's just not meant for me. And it's part of the training. I don't think we would be actors if we didn't go through difficult times. That's what makes us watchable. People have to uh we're those bold few people that go and show all of the scars and the difficulties and struggles out loud so other people can go and watch it and go through it with us. Like I said earlier, they can live vicariously through our ability to go to those places. So we can't be a great artist if you haven't struggled, if you haven't gone through those things, it's just part of the process. To me, that's how I accept it.

SPEAKER_02 57:20

I will say I too am dyslexic. Are you yeah, oh yes, uh uh up until I uh was in college, I thought I was stupid. Yeah, but then I learned that uh though I was dyslexic, I had certain qualities that somebody who wasn't dyslexic had. Yes that I could do other things better than my counterpart.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Well, your concentration's probably better, yes. We have to work harder, absolutely, that makes us better in a in a way, absolutely, and to own it, right?

SPEAKER_02 57:57

And to just own it. I, you know, I don't make apologies for it. I just go, well, you know, that's just how my brain works, but I am good at this. This I'm really good at. So let's let's lean in on that. So, but the the um losing the jobs, I don't think people talk about it enough. You know, we always talk about when you get the job, right? But we don't talk about how to um give yourself grace if you get let go of the job. Yeah, that we we need to have that grace, you know. Uh sometimes it it losing the job isn't the worst thing that can happen to you, is actually the best thing that can happen to you. Absolutely. And and if you're a union actor, you still get paid. Yeah, you still get paid, they still have to pay you your money. And so to to be able to take that information and go, okay, um, sometimes it is just miscasting. Sometimes when they get you in it, they realize, wow, the the this doesn't work as a as a picture. And they're creating pictures, and they go, ooh, that guy is too tall for that woman, or that that guy is it he's a little too short for that woman. There sometimes it has nothing to do with your acting ability, but just a physical look. They're looking for a certain picture, they're creating pictures in movies as they are telling a story. And and it is not um, we don't have that kind of power to stay on a job, but it it it it it is important to embrace that and to just go, I I just got a story I can talk about my next interview. I could talk about what happened and how exactly, you know, and how it ended up being a good thing instead of a bad thing because I got fired on that. I was able to get a job on this other project that I wouldn't have had the opportunity if I was still working on that project because I wouldn't have been available.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

So the uh you know that's the same time I got fired, that happened. It actually was to my credit, it worked out much better.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

Yeah, the Bible talks about what the devil intended for evil, God works out for good. And if and if we are if we are disciples of Christ, then we have to trust that God is working everything out for us in a good way, even though we might have suffered or had a rough time of it. Yeah, um, uh, that we just trust God to go, you're you're gonna restore to me what what the devil stole from me and you're gonna give it to me with uh with increase. I'm gonna get blessed abundantly above all that I could ever ask for or imagine. So on that note, I want to talk about your your background as a Christian man, a spiritual man, because you went to Biola University before you thought of getting into acting, right? That was and so what made you decide to go to Biola University? For those of you who do not know, is a Christian university. It it really is uh it it is it in Pasadena?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Am I it's in no La Marata.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

Oh, La Marata, the other one's in Pasadena. Okay, all right, and so in going there, what what were a couple of things that you took away with you that you actually still use today?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

I mean, it's not a couple, it's a lot. So it was it was the best thing I could have done. I was accepted into several universities, and I chose to do that because I just wanted to get a foundation of faith. I wanted to really explore. I didn't have that, certainly not at the other schools, colleges I had gone to previously. And so, I mean, it was everything. And I loved Biola stands for Bible Institute of Los Angeles. So I wanted to study the Bible, I wanted to get to know it pretty well. So that was part of the drive. I wanted to understand God more and learn from people that had perspectives of God. I got all of that and a thousand times more. What it was great at, like I'll never forget, we had a class, uh, I think it was called Man's Sin Salvation. And in it, I thought, at one point, I thought we're talking about abortion. So I thought, all right, here we go. Now we're gonna get like a single perspective, and it's gonna be told to me. It was not handled that way. My teacher, brilliant, brought in someone that had had an abortion and was happy. Someone that had an abortion was not happy, a doctor that gave abortions was happy, a doctor that gave abortions and had to stop, he was not happy. And let it be, you know, all right, you guys all talk and then turn it to us and go, now what do you think? I mean, what a great way to teach. So it provided a really solid foundation for me that's lasted an entire lifetime. You know, talk about what we were just talking about. It's it's my little limited perspective on life. I feel pretty good about it because I I'm educated and I've studied and worked hard, but it's so limited compared to what really exists. Like my perspective compared to God's perspective is night and day. You know what I mean? So it provided me a foundation to actually be comfortable with that. And that's why just talking about being fired or whatever, it's it's not that hard for me because it's just like, yeah, it's that's his will. I was never meant to do this. It all worked out, it's supposed to be this way. You know, it's we get so hung up on how come I'm not doing this. You know, my my poor wife will get an earful because sometimes I do go, you know, it's just frustrating right now because I've worked so hard on this craft. Why am I not getting more work? Or why am I not getting these huger roles that other friends have got, you know, and it but in the end I know full well because I'm not meant to. And that's not a bad thing. It's just like, I'll get mine, I get mine, you know. It's I'm I'm very blessed. I can never complain. I've had a really nice career, so a lot of the effort did pay off. But I'll always have complaints because my little limited perspective doesn't give me the whole picture. So that's what it provided. It kind of gave me an idea of the whole picture of life and what's the real purpose. Because certainly doing you know, three episodes of curb your enthusiasm is not my real reason I'm on life. As fun as that was, that's not my real reason. You know, I've had I've had great talks on sets that I think were so much more important than the product we put out that I shot as an actor, if that makes sense. Those lasting relationships where I was just at the right place used by God with that person, you know, those things pay off. So it's bigger than what we think. It's way better.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:37

Yeah, that speaks to your uh destiny.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:43

Sometimes we are so focused on the work that we don't open up the lens for a destiny. We're so, you know, we we bring it in so tight. My career, my career, my career. And as artists, we do better, I think, when we are walking with God, allowing him to uh download in us what he wants us to do, right? You you mentioned being on set, and sometimes the talk on set was the reason why you were there. Exactly. The job was the catalyst, but the reason you were there was to minister to somebody, to give somebody hope. To that as actors, we are three-dimensional. We're not just, you know, we're just not about craft, but we we have a lot more uh layers to us. And um I as an actor who is a follower of Christ, I I uh uh because I think you have to be a follower of what it is you believe. What whatever whatever um form of religion you uh um you look at and you you take from, you have to be a follower of it. You have to really believe what that is. Your faith has to be in that if if you're Muslim, if you're Buddhist, if you're uh uh an atheist. I mean, if you're an atheist, you got to believe that. That that's a faith, being an atheist. I don't believe in anything. Great, you believe in nothing. I love it. It is that I'll take it a step further.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:18

You believe in God, but God is you. You know that that's that's the belief.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

So God is in me and God works through me, and I get out of the way. Um uh and and that's the thing. As you grow, you start to learn, uh, let my flesh decrease so my spirit can increase. I want to be a good, I want to be a good child of of the king. How do I do that? Well, I I need to surrender. What do you where do you want me to be? We we were talking about getting on set, and I can tell you that maybe about 10, 11 years, maybe about 13 years into it, because I I, you know, we want that success. We want to be famous, we want that blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And you think this is gonna be the job that gets me there. This is this job is gonna get me there. This is the one, and then it doesn't. It is not the one that gets you there. But I do remember um having a shift, having a talk with God, and because I have a lot of talks with God, yeah, and and and it was a low-budget film, and he said, Go in there and be of service, just be of service, make it not about you, but about the people around you. And I remember the struggle the first couple of days because I was on the set for about two weeks, but I remember the struggle the first two days because my ego wanted to like say, I'm here. And and I could hear, I could hear God say, be of service, be of service, be of service. And I used to have a problem with hair and makeup people and uh wardrobe. Those those three those three departments used to uh put the hairs up on my on the back of my neck. It used to make me want to fight because I had a perspective of what the character should be. Yeah, I I have worked it out in myself, and then I come on set and they're doing something totally different that I don't think is appropriate for my character.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:27

And I and I had that challenge on that set, and I was like, nope, I'm gonna be of service, I'm gonna be of service, I'm gonna be of service. And my my goal on that set with everybody from the the PA to the lead actor was to be of service. What do you need? How can I help you? And that really changed that that just started to shift how I was showing up as an artist for myself, because we start to we get paranoid, right? We get paranoid, everybody's against you, they're all trying to do something bad to you, oh blah, blah, blah. All these, you know, your the enemy within you starts to try to sabotage you.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:17

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:19

So with you having gone to Biola and and working on your faith and your walk with God, what have you learned and how have you practiced showing up on set as a man of God and not just as an actor?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

Well, that is the priority, is to be a man of God. You know, I'm called to be light, so to speak, and to be an example of Christ. And what we were going, what we were talking about earlier is to me, uh let me use acting. You're not a great actor unless we talked about earlier, unless you just you love this and you study and you keep trying, you try, and you play, and you learn, and you do new things. And to me, it's no different with Christ. And in fact, that's priority one over even acting for me. So I don't quit that. I read every day, with rare exception. I do read the Bible every single day. With rare exception, I do continue to study, I do try to understand more and more about Christ. I'm called to be Christ-like in this world. Well, what is that exactly? I can't know what that is unless I'm really digging in non-stop every single day. That passion is huge in me, the hugest passion. So that's what drives everything. The nice thing is, is it sort of puts the set in perspective for me, you know, like we were kind of talking about earlier, too. I'm not as worried if I don't book a role, that okay, my career's over, everything I put into my life is over. If you put everything about acting as the center of your life, you're gonna be disappointed because it's gonna disappoint you. If you put Christ at the center of your life, learning everything you can about that, trying to become more Christ-like every single day, you're not gonna be disappointed because that doesn't disappoint. That's different. We may not totally understand it. You know, we're limited in what we know. It's like his ways are far more, his ways are more mysterious and exceed anything that we could ever imagine. That's true. I didn't build this earth, I don't have the ability to build this earth, you know. I can't I can't even basically get myself out of bed some days, much less put my body together piece by piece, you know, and create everything around us. So as much as I put my passion in trying to understand that, that passion drives everything. And I think that's really where it's at. It's keeping priorities straight. I talk about a lot of my seminars, and this just amazes me. Um, I ask people, what are your passions? Like, what is your purpose in life? Because we are affected by people that are passionate more than people that are not passionate, certainly. And as artists, we're called to be passionate people. So what is your passion? Because you can bring that passion to your art. It's like I said, I can say no to things because I know what my passion is. I'm not gonna go against that. I know what I stand for, what I believe in, I know what matters. I'm not gonna go against that. It makes no sense whatsoever. So it drives everything, but you need to know that. And I would I had an assignment in the classes I used to teach with actors when I was teaching a class on knowing your type and building your niche and all that stuff. What is your life passion? And I can't tell you how many people will come back and say, I just I don't know, I've never even thought about it. I was like, you never thought about your purpose on earth and your passions and what you want your life to say or what you would hope would be on your tombstone when you die. Like, like never, never thought about those passions, and that's interesting to me. You know, I think a lot of people avoid that because it's like, well, no, I'd rather just focus on acting right now. But there are bigger things. There are much, much bigger things. Every famous star that's you know, at the end of their career can easily say, Yeah, there's bigger things than just acting.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:02

And by knowing what your destiny is, you know, why did God create you? I love, I love in um in the book of Esther where it says, I was created for a time such as this.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:17

That when you ask God, what was I created for? Why was I created for now? He will give you the answer. It may take a little while for you to calm yourself, quiet yourself down to hear what it is that he has for you. But if you are, if you ask him, he will give you the answer. And it's knowing, why was I creative for now? What am I supposed to do with my acting? What is the purpose of me being an actor? Because he is the big creator and he has uh poured into us to be the little creators. Right. We get to create, right? As actors or any kind of creative person. We have uh we are totally uh connected to God so that he can give us when we hear those actors or singers or or songwriters or filmmakers talk about, you know what? It just flowed through me. I had nothing, it just kind of came through me and I just did it. That's God saying, here, here, this is for you. Go ahead and do it. Michael Jackson had a what would would always say, you know, uh sometimes God wakes me up in the middle of the night and I do it right away because I don't want him to give the idea to Prince. And so I I love that that we are always being given ideas, always being given things to do from God. But if we don't do it, he's gonna find someone else to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:43

Saying that, your um you teach on being a working actor, which is your website, be a working actor.com. What um uh because to me, uh as I was going through your stuff, it was like you've evolved. There's an there's an evolution that has come up with you, Mark, the actor, and Mark the creator, in that you're not just talking about branding, but you're actually um opening up the lens of your uh destiny and saying, okay, well, now this is what we're gonna focus on. What does being a working actor mean to you that you can give other actors?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:29

Being a working actor is it's every art, it's not just acting. I I've certainly learned this because I started in music, I'm back to music now, I'm I'm playing again, which is just shocking to me. Um it is Rick Rubin, I think, says it really well. It is art is showing your perspective on life. That's what it is. You're letting people see your perspective on life, and it's what we just talked about. That's integral. That's my whole purpose in life as to serve God. That's my that's gonna come through my art regardless. That's my perspective, and so it is what I have to offer, whether that's through music, through art, through photography, um, all of those. That is my perspective, and that perspective is actually of value to people. You know, you're never ever gonna please everybody, ever. That's impossible. But you will find this little circle of people that really need to hear what you are saying because you are authentically comfortable and confident in sharing your perspective on the world. So, however that unfolds, to me, that's the way you do it. You know, being a working actor, uh look, let's be really honest. I it's I've had this conversation with so many people. It's we were in class with some amazing, amazing actors. And even after with Ivana and and and and several Larry Moss, when I studied with Larry Moss, I mean some amazing, amazing actors, incredibly good looking, charismatic. They never worked, and then there were others that just were not that engaging or whatever, and they became stars. And it's just like there is no reason, there's no rhyme or reason to why some become that super successful and why others don't. And so you can't set out and go, no, I am, I am, I am a superstar, and I'm gonna be. I I like the confidence, I really do like the confidence of being of saying that, but there is a reality about that that can be problematic because again, it will disappoint. So if you want to be a working actor, put your heart into this, do all you can, but trust that God's in control of how it's gonna unfold. And that may not necessarily be how we see it, you know, how I thought my career would unfold, it didn't happen that way, that's for sure. You know, certainly doing some of the things I've done, I didn't expect that. Good and bad, you know. So you just have to be in love with the journey, and the journey is this is my perspective on life. That's to me why passions are so important, why your life passions are so important.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:00

And arguing with God and trying to set deals with God is not gonna help you. I say that from a firsthand account. I um I also did stand-up for about 14 years, and um, I have put together several uh female comedy groups, and the the second one that I put in, um, I've spent the most time on. It was six years, and I just I just believed in this group, I believed in everything that it was, and I I put everything I had to it, everything and more. And I remember waking up one morning and just going, God, what is happening? And I was I was going up Frima Canyon and I was talking to God, I was crying, but God, this could really work. This could really we've we've done a CD, we've been going on tour, we've doing it, and if these women would just get along and just then he said, I didn't tell you to do that. Right, and that stopped the conversation, right? It was over. I did not tell you to do this, and what I learned, and what I've learned, and what I, you know, what sometimes I have to relearn it, but to go, that may be a good idea, but it's not God's idea. You don't tell God how you are supposed to um uh be an artist. You follow, follow the directions, do what, you know, take the classes, do what you need to do, but he will bring your success in the way he chooses. Your job is to be willing and obedient so you can eat the good of the land. Be willing and obedient. Let go of your idea of what it's supposed to be like, how it's supposed to be, and just dig in to get to know what God has created, why God has created you for times such as this. What is it that you want? What do you need? Um, you talked about having a discerning spirit and being, you know, a spirit of discernment. And I have a I I too have a spirit of discernment. And but when I was young and I had that spirit, let me tell you, I hated it with a passion. I would, I would, I would complain together. Why you, what are you, why are you doing this? How come you're giving me people's mail? I don't want to read their mail. Now I can't, I can't look at them the same way ever again. Why are you doing that? I just want to have friends. You're taking away all my friends because you keep telling me what they're doing. What they're doing. And then it wasn't until I really started leaning in, and I still have to, you know, I still have to watch myself to go, okay, God, you gave me this. And I started to learn that when God gave me a word to give to people, to just give it. Don't have a um, yeah, don't uh don't delay it, don't sugarcoat it, just tell the people what God told you to tell them. Period. End of story. If they don't want to receive it, they don't have to.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:05

How has the spirit of discernment that you've been given um worked in your life or challenged you in your life?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

I think it challenged you the everyday because I don't understand God and I want to understand God. Um, I don't understand his choices, but I want to understand his choices. So it is an everyday thing. Um I'll quote the Bible for you. James has talks about uh is that you know, don't say I'm gonna make plans and I'm gonna do this and today and do this and have this and make money doing this. He says, instead, go ahead and make the plans, but say if it's God's will, and that's the daily challenge. That's the daily challenge for me, is like, you know what, I am gonna make my plans, I'm gonna do what I need to do if it's your will, and I'm gonna trust that you oversee all this and you know what's best. You're gonna dictate down the line, and I'm gonna give you all that permission to do that. So that's the daily challenge for me is to do because I like to take it my way most of the time. And I like to have my results the way I wanted them most of the time, you know, and that and that's a difficult journey. But yes, you can do it with God or you can try to do it on your own without God. That's that's that's the choice.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:18

Yeah, doing it without comfortable doing it without well. Wait a minute, doing it without is not an option, sir. It is not an option. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:25

I mean, people choose that route, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:27

And then, like Jonah, you get you you end up in the the belly of a whale because you were not wanting to do what he told you to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:37

And so what happens? You get thrown overboard, you get you get uh sucked in by a whale, you're in the belly, and now what are you gonna do? Now, now what are you going to do? Because you did not answer the call when he first told you to do it, and so we get in trouble like that. Yeah, um, I uh I want to go into prayer for a second. I I I'm taking you everywhere around the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

I'm not expecting any of us to go this direction, but I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:04

Because I I am a believer in prayer. The the Bible talks about the fervent prayers uh the fervent prayers of a righteous man. Accomplishes much. Yes. And so learning how to pray in a way that is not about us, but we are praying God's will, we're praying for what lines up with God's word. And sometimes prayers take many, many years. So I'm gonna give you an example of where I saw this really happen. Um, I was a I was a uh intercessor at my church, and we had a small, it was, it was a small church, it was it was establishing itself. Um, I had come from a very large uh megachurch, and I did not want to leave it. But when I got to the church, I knew I was supposed to be there, and I was again, uh let me tell you, I fight with God so much, and He still loves me because I don't want to go to this church. They got 15 people here, and and 12 of them look like they're gonna die any minute. I don't want to be in another church. And it was like, no, you're gonna be in this church. So I was in this church, and I I learned how to how to be uh a better steward, how to show up for church and and serve in all the ministries. I mean, from children's ministries to hospitality to uh intercession, all of it. And I remember our pastor at the time rented out the Saban Theater, which was at that time called the Wilshire Theater.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:41

And the Wilshire Theater, for those who don't know the Wilshire Theater, it seats close to 3,000 people. There were only 50 people in the congregation. And he rented this church out for a month, a month of Sundays, not a month, but a month of Sundays. And people were upset. They felt like he he spent money. Um he was a bad steward in how he spent the money to do this church, uh, to do, to rent this theater out. Well, every Sunday we got there an hour before the service and we laid hands on every part of the building. We prayed over every part of the building uh that it would be overflowing. The the congregation would be overflowing. Well, at the end of the month, at the end of those four Sundays, we lost about 20 people. So we went from 50 to 30 because people were pissed off. They were so mad. But come to, and and then over the years, I was at this church for 30 years. Over the years, we would grow and then God would prune the church. We would, let's say we went from 50 to 300, and then all of a sudden we were back down to 125. We went up to 500, and then we were down to 250. Like he kept pruning and pruning until we became a bit of a mega church. So 19 years later, we were we had two um uh campuses. We had our main uh building, and then we were in the valley at uh Seasun utilizing their facilities. And so he was basically doing six services a weekend, which was a lot. And so he decided we were gonna go into the Saban. We so the first Sunday we're sitting there, we're getting ready, you know, people are coming in, whatever. I'm sitting, and all of a sudden I felt someone tap the back of my shoulder. So I turned around and I heard God, like I'm talking to you, say to me, This is what you prayed for 19 years ago. I almost, I almost flew out of my seat. I jumped up so quickly, and I just wanted to share with somebody. And I remember that being the moment where I realized that prayers take shape, not according to your time frame, but according to God's time frame, that we needed all that pruning, we needed all that time, all that expansion, all that stuff to happen in order to make that prayer a reality. It took 19 years as a Christian artist, a Christian creative, that we don't factor the time in because we think if I pray, it's gotta happen tomorrow or today or yesterday. You know, Lord, you know I got this bill. I got this bill, Lord. I gotta pay it at five o'clock. I need you to bring the money. And sometimes God, sometimes He brings it and sometimes He doesn't. And and the thing is to have faith in God, to wait on God to go, you know what? Yeah, my phone got cut off, but it's okay because it'll get turned back on when it's supposed to. I will do what I need to do to get it done, but hey, I I didn't work as an actor, didn't have money, and refused to ask somebody to loan me the money. So I have to take so there are consequences to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:18

How has prayer um worked in your life? And where is it that you have seen the power of prayer for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:28

It's worked on a lot of levels. Um, number one is it's deepened my relationship with God. I, you know, early on and when I was younger, it was, you know, you're learning about things is exciting. You, you know, you you get here's what I think is interesting. You you you get a lot when you're young. If you did give your life to Christ, you get a lot. I just I think you know, I got into I got into biola without paying a cent, and I came from not a lot of money. My parents didn't have money, and things like that happen. As you get older in life, prayer is a little bit different. And now I find it's like I said no. But God, you don't understand. Is it I said no? But I I said no. I mean, it's that it's like I'm praying, so you'll say no. I mean, and then you start getting into those sort of areas, but that strengthens you and it builds that trust even more. It's I I don't know about you. I almost feel like I was much closer to him when I was younger. Closer is the wrong word. I felt we had a mutual understanding of each other when I was younger, where now I feel it's just like I'm praying, I'm praying, I'm praying. Are you there? I know he's there, I know he's there. But you start going, you do hear what I'm saying right now, because it is pretty important, right? You know, and it's just like, yeah, I do. But you're not saying yes, he says, Yeah, right. I'm saying no. And that's a strength builder that that deepens your relationship with Christ and God and makes us more Christ-like, as the Bible says, you know, that's that's a tough journey. That's a really tough journey. But I can't imagine, I can't imagine my life without it. I just can't. You know, that daily, constant conversation with God that I got going on has not only proved more and more and more and more how real he actually is and how much he cares, but it's given me and my life importance to the things I couldn't figure out, or meaning to things I couldn't figure out, or importance to things that felt non-import. You know, it's like like we talked about earlier, relationships are so incredibly important. You know, well, my wife and I don't have kids, but uh ironically, a good friend of mine one time we were talking about it, and he says, Oh, you don't understand. You have a lot of kids, and that was interesting because that was something I sort of prayed about it, but it's just like I do, because you become a mentor and you become the person that they can turn to. When they don't know how to answer a really difficult question in life. Or like we were just talking about way at the beginning. I can't tell you how many times I've had conversations with actors where it's like, just say no. You don't have to say yes. But it might destroy my career. It doesn't matter. It's not going to hurt your career. It's going to, in fact, make it better in a lot of ways, a lot of deeper. You know, I'm that person. So I do have a lot of kids. So, you know, and that's just one of my prayers. So it, like you talked about, yeah, it's God's timing is not our timing at all. But you know, he's not found by time, he's beyond time. So not even a factor for him. Who cares? We got I got this worked out. He's got it worked out. You know, where me, it's just like, nah, in my little box, don't you see? You should have done it this way. But again, that it just strengthens me. It just constantly strengthens me to do that. I I love kind of turning everything over to him, too. We talk about auditions, you know. Every audition is like, you know, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna put my heart into this. I love acting, I love the opportunity. I get to do this, but hey, I'm giving it to you. You know, you do what you need to do with it. If you want me to be on that set, I will. If you don't, I I don't I don't want to be on it then. You know, that that that whole prayer thing is incredibly helpful for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:01

Aligning ourselves with God, that scripture. When I was young, the scripture delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of our of your heart.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:12

I would it was so perverted for me because I and as I've gotten older, it's like, no, I delight myself in God and in the things of God. Yeah, then transformation happens to me. So I am not about what I want, but I am about the father's wants. What does the father want? I uh I'll tell you this quick little story of um uh another time God speaks to me all the time. I mean, I've been I've been talking to God since I was three, four years old. I didn't come from a Christian home. Um my home was very dark. My my father was a uh pimp, my mother was a prostitute. Uh there was a lot of craziness going on in my home, but God was uh from the time I was three years old, I can tell you that I've always spoken to God. And then I went to Catholic school and God really wasn't there. But anyway, but um, but um years ago, I had gotten an opportunity to uh meet Bill Cosby, not the monster Bill Cosby people talk about, but Bill Cosby, the creative, the artist. And it was a magical time, it was amazing. And I remember uh Bill would say, call up the head of uh Columbia and tell them I said for you to audition for this. So I would call up and they would go, we don't know who you are. I said, Well, that's okay because Bill said it. And it must have been a month where I was telling everybody, but Bill said, Bill said, Bill said, I remember waking up one morning, I'm talking to God, and he said, you know, it would be so nice if you would tell people what I said with the same confidence you tell people what Bill said, and you don't even know Bill. And and that that conversation changed everything for me regarding how I spoke about God in um in Hollywood, in show business, um, that it changed how I spoke to people, that you know, I'm I'm big on prayer. So I don't care who you are, I will go lay hands on you in a minute and start praying over you whether you want it. Well, I try to be I try to be respectful and go, would you like me to pray for you? Yeah because I would like to back then I wasn't respectful. I would just go lay hands on you and say you need blah blah blah blah blah blah. And I would just start praying. But now I'm I'm I'm a little bit better. I'm a little bit better. Um, but that whole thing of walking in your faith, knowing whose child you are, knowing who you serve allows you to cut the stuff so it's not you're not walking in good ideas. You walk more in God's idea as opposed to my flesh saying, oh man, this comedy show could really be a monster showing. God is like, nope, I didn't tell you to do that. You didn't come to me, you didn't ask me, we didn't dialogue on it. I I never would have let you do it. And what I see in my relationship with God is that he is my perfect father. And and if I trust him as my perfect father, he will provide everything that I need. And it's not in my timing, right? Because there's a time. It's like uh I have a daughter, I'm a single mom. And so sometimes my daughter says, uh, when she was young, she said, Can I have this? Can I have that? I say, No, we don't have the money for it right now, but when I do, I will make sure you get it. Learning that, uh uh, learning that patience to wait, that there is a time for it. Going back to your um your company, what what it is that you offer actors, be a working actor. To me, that's a ministry that you're you are you are that's your pulpit, right? Um, and I think it's important for actors and creatives to know that our pulpit doesn't necessarily mean you are the pastor of a church. Yeah, but you could be the pastor of your uh of your job, of your um your craft.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:36

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting. I I went to Biola and then Talbot. I took some Talbot classes, which is a seminary, thinking that's where I was going. I think it was heading that direction into the ministry to become a pastor. Um, three times I've been asked to do that, to become a pastor. Three times God made it very obvious, no, it's not what we're doing. I just want to see if you're willing, see if you're able, see if you're capable, you know. But um, but you're right. What ends up happening is it's like, no, my purpose is elsewhere. My purpose is as an actor, my purpose is on a set, my purpose is whatever as a content creator. And that's that's where he wants to use me right now. And like we talked about earlier, sometimes it's way smaller than I had expected or I had hoped, and that's perfectly fine. He knew that too. It's like, nope. I I get shocked if like, you know, we're we're actors, and so we expect to do things and projects that will make an impact on millions. That's what art does on that level. And then you end up, it's like, no, it was only about one person. You talk about I've prayed on sets as well. It was up, I just needed you to be there to pray with this one person on set. That's it. That's all we needed. That's all I wanted. It wasn't to, you know, influence the millions, it wasn't to change the world, it was actually just one person I really needed you to be there for. So I got off on a tangent, but it it is it is a trust. It it is a I trust him implicitly, I trust him entirely, you know, with every step of the way. I like that because it takes all the responsibility off of me. I have a good friend that you know will say he's atheist and will say, you know what, the difference is is I have hope in myself, you have to find it somewhere else because you don't have enough hope, you don't have enough strength. It's like, no, it's actually the opposite. It takes all the onus off me and puts it on something much better. Because when I if I have hope in myself, I'm gonna constantly disappoint myself and constantly feel the need to try harder and harder and harder to accomplish this thing when no, I don't have to do that. His will's far more important and far more powerful than my will. That's that's for sure. So I like that it kind of puts it on something bigger. It's like even, you know, AA, going into AA meetings, it's you know, it it starts with admitting you have a problem and finding that there is a higher power that you need to trust in the process. You know, there's a reason for that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:06

And I want to add to what you were saying, you ministered to one person, but you were watering in that person, and you don't know uh how that water how that person will water into others.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:18

Yeah, I'll I'll say one more thing I I learned that God spoke to me. I used to be a uh cereal plant killer. I was a cereal plant killer, and I woke up one morning and I said, Where's the fruit? Because that was something my pastor's wife would always say in Bible study, where's the fruit in your life? Where are you planting and seeing fruit? I was like, I don't have any fruit, there's no fruit coming in. So I literally went to um the DeWitt Center near me, and I bought seeds, I bought soil, I bought some uh little uh plants, and I put them out in my balcony. And so I I planted the seeds, I got nasturtiums and I planted the seeds, and then I put the rest of the seeds that I didn't plant underneath the pot where I had had uh planted the nasturtiums. And every morning I would come out, I would water, I would water, and one day I come out and the flowers are in bloom. Not only are the flowers in bloom in the pot, they are in bloom from the packet because it was being watered into the packet. It did not have soil, but those seeds popped open and they too had have burst into flowers. And at that moment, God said, see, you never know who you're watering into that's gonna water into someone else. And I believe with all my heart that we as actors, when we water into a production, into a play, or or just speaking to other actors that we're watering into them, we are placing into them uh hope and life, you know, that life abundantly, we're we're actually watering that into them. So with that being said, as you are uh continuing, because I I do wanna I I had wanted to talk about uh FICOR and some other stuff, and I want to get there, but I want to say in as you have grown and evolved into a seasoned actor, creative, musician what is the watering that you do now when you speak into uh the lives of other creatives?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:42

I think it comes down to the like just mentoring. I I and sometimes it's not like I'm the mentor, who wants to work with me? You know, it's not that that way. God kind of brings them to me. Um trying to think that's that's it's an interesting question. It's just like I I have to trust God's process. And you know, we I'll be biblical here too. There are some times when we're going through the desert, you know, and uh or walking through the shadow of the valley of death, you know, it's it's there are times when we're going through those. And and I I feel like it's been that way recently for not just me, for several people, quite a few people, my my closest friends. Um, and we have those periods where you're not as watering, and then other times when you're just non-stop watering. Um, so I try to trust that process as well. But it's just it's it's just a sensitivity. It's just, I mean, sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and where he's leading me and all of that. So I'm supposed to be sensitive to it. I'm supposed to be, you know, available to if he's prompting me to go talk to someone, go talk to someone. You know, that there's a sensitivity there. Um, I don't yeah, I don't know that I have a plan for that. It's kind of trusting his process, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:02

You're just open to it when it comes to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:06

Uh let's talk about the dark, the dark time. Um, as actors, the last few years that has been tremendously disruptive. We had COVID that changed the landscape of how we audition.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:26

So, with that, I have a question for you and then I I have some other stuff. But when actors get on Zoom or when they are doing self-tapes, what kind of background or yeah, background do you recommend them to use that is not those virtual backgrounds when they go in and out, which I hate, um, I hate it with a passion. Oh my God. Um, what is there something that you as a photographer that you can offer them to help them get their their self-tape in a professional way?

SPEAKER_01 1:44:06

I mean, self-tapes is gonna be good sound, good lighting, and a decent background on a technical level. And then everything else is like good acting is gonna steal no matter what. So I am on the side of the better you are as an actor, it almost doesn't matter that much. I I've seen horrible looking self-tapes with amazing performances, and that will still win. So, but if you do want to be technically precise, it's you can look all this stuff up online too. It's three-point lighting, it's really nice to have. Um, strong key light from one side, a little bit less fill on the other, and then just a little bit of something from the back to separate you if you want. That said, I mean, I shoot in my living room with my my wife most of the time. I've got two giant lights that are bouncing against the wall because it's nice and soft. Um, even as I'm set up here, I've got a uh a ring light ahead of me, but if it was in my face, it would be bad. It's actually bouncing off a wall. Um, so you need that one stronger light, one little bit weaker light uh on that level. Then we have if there is a light behind, and I don't even use a backlight. I think it's perfectly fine just to have the nice softer lights that are bouncing off the wall. And then um for background, I just use a white wall. That's all I use, and it's never been a problem. If you want to use even a sheet and hang it, you know, behind you that's not too bright. Um, yeah, as long as it's not too distracting. I wouldn't go super dark or super colorful or super bright so it doesn't distract from you.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:39

And not wrinkly. Please don't have a wrinkly sheet behind you. Not a wrinkly sheet. Yeah, yeah, don't have a wrinkly sheet.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:47

Ironically, I mean I've got a closet behind me in the wall. I I don't know if I have anything to show. I don't. But it's it's actually okay. It's actually okay to see, you know, I don't like shiny doorknobs or anything like that. Nothing that's distracting, but it's just simple lines that are not really that distracting. You can just look at your stuff and say, does that seem to be distracting? You know, yeah, wrinkles are going to be distracting, any of that stuff. And then sound to me is the most important thing. You know, it's like it. I call it the Blair Rich principle. Blair Rich was a really horribly shot film, like you couldn't see hardly any and shaking all over them, whatever. But they did have amazing sound. And granted, they put a lot into post-sound to make it amazing sound. But if your sound is good, you're way ahead of most people. You know, most people have just their phone, and they've got the reader actually closer to the mic than you are, so the reader's louder than you. To me, the things like that can be a bit distracting. Just buy a Rode RODE video mic and they make them for uh iPhones and put that on a little tiny stand so it's closer to you and facing you, so that you know your reader's a little bit less, but your voice is a great quality, great quality sound. That simple adjustment can be one of the biggest ones.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:02

DJI has very small microphones that are good as well. Yes. Okay, so now that we've talked about the self-tape, let's go into a lot of union actors go fi core.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:20

Let's talk about that because I got issues with that. I got issues with the fact that we even have that in the union because well, that's we we don't have a choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:32

That that's federal law. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:36

I'm glad you said that because I yeah, I I did not know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:39

Yeah, no, we don't have it. I'm I'm very active on several boards at SAG, so that is that we don't really have a choice in terms of governing that. Um, a union can't, by federal law, prevent people from getting work. Uh so and and that's that's why it exists. The union does make it pretty difficult. They try to make it very difficult to get back in uh as best we can, because we do want to discourage it because it does weaken the unions. When we go through the lean periods like we are now, when we have periods where commercials are 80 to 90 percent non-union, of course it's going to encourage people to do that. When we've got verticals coming in, and a lot of them pay actually better than the new SAG contracts we have, people are gonna be more tempted to go to you know, working that. But it does weaken the union in the long run. It's better if we all stick with SAG. I understand people make that choice for financial reasons, but to me, part of being an artist is there's gonna be lean periods. It's just how this career is designed. Even even stars will go, you know. I I'm not gonna say any names, but you would be shocked by the number of stars that have lost their insurance this year.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:50

No, I'm not shocked. I'm not at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:54

Don't have health insurance through SAG because they didn't book a principal role within the year and or and or they didn't have enough residuals to cover. You do have to book a principal role each year to maintain it. Uh, they whether they didn't do that or whatever. So but a lot. There's going to be lean periods, you know, and that's that's just the nature of the beast. But I'd rather stand for a really strong union than I would allow people to just freely, you know, go, well, it doesn't matter. It does matter. It matters hugely. You know, right now there's a big I see all online so many from managers to actors to whatever pushing people to go FICOR. And I just I just hate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:35

I think that's horrible. So so I want to I want to stay here for a second to say why it's horrible. Um, because you get money up front, but you lose money in the back end. You don't get your residuals, you don't get your pension. What else don't you get? Um, you you don't get pension, you don't get residuals, and you really get cheated out of a fair wage because you think getting six thousand dollars up front is the end-all be all. Whereas if you were union, that six thousand dollars would be at least four times the amount over a uh a few years.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:14

Yeah. Yeah, it's just it it's just not beneficial in a lot of ways. You know, one of the fun things that we have SAG is we get to vote for SAG. You know, we get all the screeners and we get to vote for the awards, so you know, you you lose that, and that's that's not a big deterrent for a lot of people, but there is there's just certain things. I mean, I know, and I'm sure same with you. I was so proud when I got my SAG card. Like, I was so proud. You know, I like couldn't wait to show this card to everybody. It was back in the way there's paper still, but uh yeah, it's I I like that. I like that it it shows them that you are a professional actor, and I think that too, you lose that value of like, oh no, they're not they're non-union.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:58

And it's also understanding that the corporations are trying to break the union, absolutely. So Bob Ider has been vocal about it. They encourage you um to break the union, to go against the union, and if you do that, you you weaken our power, you weaken your power as an actor because you don't have uh the guns behind you to protect you. When you go FICOR, the union can't come in and say, hey, you can't do this to the actor. They can do anything they want to you because you're on your own. You are uh an independent player now. You're not you're you are not protected. As actors, it is important for you to have other means of earning income so you don't feel that desperation.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:51

Um, and I think that's the big problem. Sometimes is actors think, well, I'm an actor. I should be working as an actor. You know what? You can work as an actor making money that's not going to hurt your status in the union by doing theater, by doing um children's theater, by uh teaching acting. There's so many things you could do with your craft to get money that does not hurt your status in the union once you get the union. And I know a lot of non-union actors go, well, I don't know, I should wait to be a union actor. No, you shouldn't. No, you shouldn't. The more actors that really stand in um in defense of the union, the stronger our union is. If you look at the writers' guild, if you look at the directors guild, they are standing on principle in the union. You don't have that type of uh sellout. We we are so desperate. And we are so needy that we hurt ourselves. We shoot ourselves in the foot to go, well, I need that $200. Uh, do you really need that $200 when when you should be getting at least $1,500?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:03

Yeah. Well, I mean, addressing what you just said too, it's I I have a friend who's actually he he made millions in crypto. And he said, you know, the best thing is he's an actor. He said, the greatest thing is, is like I'm so free to do whatever I want as an actor. I don't have the desperation of I need to get a job, I need to, you know, I need to book something, or I could, you know, he said that freedom that it gave him made him a far better actor. He was because he's comfortable, he gets to good really enjoy what he's doing. You know, I I think the best way to audition is just go. The Brian Cranston theory of, you know, just look at it as another another opportunity to act. It's just like you get to go do what you love to do, don't try to book the job, just go do what you get to love to do in that little one little moment for whoever gets to see that tape. It's a great attitude. And when you start to get to the desperation, you're not gonna book anyway. Yeah, so it's hard to get locked into that, you know. And every one of my close friends who's in the business right now is struggling, every single one. And um, it's just we're in that period. Also, you gotta realize things ebb and flow, they they come and they go, it goes circular. We're going through another independent film movement. It happened in the 60s, 70s because corporations, if this sounds very familiar, it is corporations came in and bought out the studios. Seagram's had uh uh Gulf Western owned uh Paramount, Paramount, yeah, Seagram's owned universal, Universal. So all these corporations and they ran it like they are now, like corporations. Apple doesn't need their division of acting, uh filmmaking. Um Amazon doesn't need it. They so but they think they can run it like a corporation. Look what Disney's doing, you know, yet Moana right now, another live action of the cartoon, the same formula they've been doing for a while. We're people are tired of it. It happened then, it was all musicals. Musicals were the tentpole films in the days, you know, and they put millions into these things, and people got sick of the same old formula, and that fueled the independent movement when all of a sudden people were making things for cheap, like obsession and backrooms that are happening right now, and it exploded and again gave artists the permission to do stuff. We're going through that cycle. It happened on a smaller scale, but similar in the 90s with films like Clerks and all those, you know. So, and again, we're doing it again. Hang in there, there's hope, and we do a lot more stuff. It frees us up to not have to be stuck to formulaic junk because we get to start to express again. And that's why going back to what we were talking about before, it's so important you know who you are because you can put your own thing together and go, This is my perspective on life. As I said, that is what art is about.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:39

Also, the wonderful thing in the time we're in right now that I think actors really need to focus on is that when you and I started, um, there were not a lot of side jobs we could do as actors, right? We can be waiters, waiters, waitresses, the bus, the the bartender. Uh that was basically it. That you know, you had a side job and it was you you made your money off of the tips, and and that was it. Now there's so many uh things that you could do. You could you could use your talent as a carpenter and hire yourself out through Task Rabbit. You could be an Uber driver, Uber Eats. I mean, there's so many other flexible gigs that you can take to support you as an actor that you don't have to get caught up in, oh my God, you know, I have to take this job because otherwise I'm not gonna eat, which is really um uh something to look at. It's like have integrity about your art and don't prostitute it or give it away because you are the front line of the movie or the TV show. They they need actors, they can talk all they want about AI coming in and taking actors' jobs, but that's bogus. Uh, they act uh AI, and I love AI for certain things, but AI does not have feelings like people do. It does not have memories in the way that we do that we can go in there and create something out of nothing. Um, AI is regurgitating stuff. You are unique and amazing, and nobody can duplicate your you. So don't give yourself away to a corporation and say, okay, I'm gonna sign this waiver so you can just take my likeness and use it as you will for $200 or $500 or $1,000, whatever the it's not enough money.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:41

Right.

unknown 1:57:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:44

I'm finished, I'm finished with my uh my pulpit. You go ahead and talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:49

You talk about it's it's a friend of mine's uh an exec at Netflix, and they did a they did a study and they found out that people can handle AI for about five minutes. They're like, wow, that's amazing, amazing. But after about five minutes, it wanes, which is why Netflix hasn't shifted over to full AI. They keep they're little by little, they're trying and they're trying, because again, corporations trying to make the most money they can. Um but the problem is that you can't duplicate chemistry, as we were talking about earlier. You can't duplicate real chemistry, and also people do like to watch certain people, so they do like to watch Meryl Streep doing what Meryl Streep does, you know, and you can't duplicate that. So right now, the big thing is is and again, she was telling me uh Netflix. This is probably a couple few months ago, we talked a couple months. At the time, they had six films in production, and they're putting it in a white box, and you basically kind of put things in the floor, marks on the floor, you go, okay, with huge actors, by the way, big stars, and they act it out, so we're still acting, but then they're using like Ben Affleck's company, where it's like that you just saw where it's it's all AI background, it's all AI lighting, it's all AI makeup, it's all that they change everything in AI, but you have real actors actually acting. They can't really duplicate that, and that's kind of and we'll see if that works, we'll see how well that plays. I don't know, maybe we'll get tired of the backgrounds as well. So, you know, with Tilly Norwood coming out with her big film soon, we'll see how the public handles it.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:22

But it doesn't change that who is Tilly Norwood, she's the first AI actor, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:28

Uh the one that's been controversial now for a while. But okay, she's officially in a film and it's being shot.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:35

What would you recommend actors who are union actors, how should they get involved in the union to help? Because we're we're actor-based, right? The union is actor-based. So, how how should actors start to support the union by being active in it?

SPEAKER_01 1:59:53

Well, there's a lot of committees. I mean, a lot of committees. You know, I'm on the board of one of my four committees right now. Um there's the conservatory, which is a great way to get involved. You can volunteer there, they do all kinds of great stuff, and you get free training, and and um you can volunteer, you can join certain committees. If you talk about non-union people, no, I'm talking about union actors. I'm talking about union people can easily get involved in many. There we have, I don't even know how many committees, uh 60 to 100, I would imagine. Different committees you can get involved on. Um, some of them deal with contracts. We have you know, some would deal with new people coming in. Uh, we have stunts, we have dancers, we have, I mean, there's a million committees to get involved in, which I think is is really a great way to do it, you know, just to stay involved. Um, I love it. I actually love being in on some of the committees I'm on. Plus, I am in some of the the bigger ones that are dealing with contracts, and I think that's really important, you know. Absolutely the best we can. But yeah, there's a there's a ton of ways to get involved. A ton of ways to get involved.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:55

I want to talk about older actors. Um sometimes older actors get in a rut, right? They they're used to doing it one way for a very long time, and we're living in a whole different uh time right now where doing it the old way doesn't work. To embrace technology, to embrace a lot of the new things, what would you say to older actors to encourage them to upgrade with technology? Hey Hector, are you tired of being tired of being tired of being tired? Your pictures aren't working, you're not getting into auditions, your agents aren't calling you back, or worse off, you can't even get an agent. Well, if that sounds like you, if it sounds like you are at your wit's end, that you just feel like all is lost, you don't know what to do, come and join us at the Acting Smarter Circle, where we are a community of actors who help other actors. And I am your guide and your coach to help you with a plan, strategy, and your branding. So if you are interested and you're tired of being tired and ready for change, come and join us at ActingSmarterCircle.com. We're waiting for you now.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:23

Yeah, I mean, it's like you said, you know, I don't think self-taping is ever going away. It's just so affordable on their end. So it's just get comfortable with that. Zooming is probably going to be the way because again, it's you know, you can have the director in New York and the casting director in Los Angeles and and the producer in Vancouver all on at the same time to check out actors. So I don't think those things are going away. It's just a matter of getting comfortable with it. Talk again about SAG. If you're a SAG actor, take some classes at the conservatory, take some classes at the foundation, you know, to make sure that you are nice and comfortable with this stuff. Um, embrace technology as best you can. There are very affordable ways to do things very simply. So it's sadly, it's just not gonna go back. I mean, you and I have seen so much change in the time we've been in the business, it's just constantly evolving. And I would say with the last five years since COVID, it's changed more than all the years prior. So many things are different now. You know, and I and I am shocked that people can actually do one self-tape and book a series regular. That that's that's just shocking to me. You know, I missed I miss the old network reads where it was like 40 people and you knew what you were going to make for this particular show before you even walked in the room. And that pressure, it I I kind of miss that.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:42

I think by just having self-tape, the the creative process suffers because the beauty of going into an office, sitting with the people, doing the the reading, getting the notes, being able to um take the notes right there and give a a um a different uh twist to what you just did, is helpful not just to the actor, but to the the producer, the director, the writer that's maybe in the room. It just it it it you lose out on the the collaborative portion of it. You know, for me, that's that's what I see. I see that of the budget, you know, uh let's cut the budget here. I think that's that's not the best place to cut the budget. I think that that should be a place that that is revered that say, no, we we want to have the in-person audition. I mean, I I know there are a lot of pros in doing it as a self-tape because you don't have to get up and drive across town and be in traffic, and and now you got three, you got three auditions that are on opposite ends, and you're trying to make all three auditions, and you're like, oh my god, I'm not gonna make the second one, I'm not gonna make the third one. You gotta call your agent and say, hey, I'm running late because they're running late. But I mean, but with that being said, I do think there's something about being in the room that a lot of new actors are missing out at. You know, that sometimes going back to uh some of our impediments like having dyslexia or having some kind of neuro uh divergent uh thing that you're dealing with, when you're in the room, you can um you can make up for that. You know, I I may not be the best reader because of dyslexia, but if you put me in front of an audience, I'm I'm gonna make it pop. You know, it's like that that sink or swim thing, you know, fight or flight. I'm fighting, let's go. And and it just changes things and it allows it allows the the people to really get to see you and envision you as opposed to, okay, well, that that visual looks good. Okay, we'll go with that visual. And I think it it hurts the filmmakers, but that's you know, that's my I think two things really get hurt by self-taping.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:22

In number one, I did a pilot not too long ago, and one of the guys, when it came to his lines, he couldn't get it right, and he was so nervous, and it's just like, dude, we've got to nail this in three minutes in three three takes. We don't have, you know, and we're only in the wide shot, we've not even come in close yet. And one of the actors asked him, he said, How many auditions did you do like in your self tape? And he goes, like 50. He did 50 self tapes, 50, 50 versions, hoping to get one right. So when he got on set, he couldn't do it. He couldn't, you know, he needed 50 takes to get one right. So that hurt the whole crew, that hurt all of us. And then the second thing is you don't know the chemistry, and you don't know if you're going to be able to deal with this person for the next six months or whatever on this particular project because they're not in the room, you're not getting their chemistry and their feel and their their personality and their energy, you know, to go, is this someone we can work with for the next six months? That's all gone because you're just looking at what they're giving you on tape, and that's it. So it hurts, it hurts a team on both ways.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:30

And that's the really bad thing about self-tape is that you have actor, well, I don't even want to say actors, you have people who are doing self-tapes because I don't consider them necessarily actors. They they don't know the craft, they're not doing what they're doing, they're just memorizing, right? Because of influencers, because of the the um content creator uh space. And I'm not I'm not putting anything on content creators, I'm a content creator, but they have not trained like actors have trained. And so they don't know the process of co-readings of okay, memorizing the lines. Now do the rehearsal so you get off of it and you can start layering things in. And now when you go on camera to do your self-tape, you're free because you know the lines. You have you have put them in your body, and now you're working on other pieces so you can be on with the person. I I do think that that is a harmful thing um in self-tape because I do uh I do see young actors redoing it and redoing it and redoing it and redoing it till they feel like it's perfect, but they didn't get the whole uh enchilada of it.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:51

Well, and some sometimes perfect is boring, in all honesty. Sometimes it's a little mistakes within the stumbles and things, you know, in in a read. That's why I missed the room. It's like I would totally stumble over lines occasionally, and uh, and it actually it doesn't matter. It we do that on sets. Eventually, someone's gonna perfectly fine to have little mistakes. You don't need a perfect read, perfect can be boring. And my one audition story on this is like back when we were in still in the rooms for Dexter, I was up for Dexter, and I had worked with those casting directors a few times, so they called me right into producers, and I think I had like five, four pages, I can't even remember now. But as we went through it, it was a room of probably 10 people, all producers, maybe 15. And Eric Kurtzer was the my reader as we were reading, and so we launched into it on page two. I just went up on my lines and I couldn't find it. And this is delexia kicking in. It's like, oh man, I don't know where I'm at. I have to memorize everything. So I couldn't find it, and I went, all right, let's start over. I didn't apologize and do anything, I just said, let's start over. Went right into it, and then take two, same place. I went up again, and I'm gonna in my head, I'm like, oh well, there we go. I just lost the part now. I screwed up twice in the same place, and so for whatever reason it freed me up. And I said, I said, I someone in this room is messing me up. I don't know who it is. Take it again, take it again, and I just time, and so same thing, second page, same place. I went up again. Now I messed up three times, and I looked at it, Eric, and I went, Eric, it's you. I said, You are besting me and you're screwing me up. Let's do it again. And I just watched people the fourth time, I didn't care at this point. Fourth time, I screwed it up again. True story, and I finally laughed and I went, you know what? I'm just gonna literally read this off the page. And I did, I just read it off the page, and uh and I booked it. I booked that, but they could tell, like, okay, this is an actor having a really crappy moment, but he's obviously a good actor, obviously, he's perfect, and he's confident we can trust this guy on set that he's gonna do whatever it takes to get through this. So we missed that, you know what I mean? Like I said earlier, it's just you don't know if you're gonna be able to work with this person. I think they felt, oh, we can totally work with this person, it's fine. But you know, and I yeah, I had a terrible day. I just kept really screwing up, and for whatever reason, I just felt the permission to say, Yeah, let's just do it again. Come on, you know, like but it worked, but it worked for you, and I was an attorney that kind of had this little attitude, so it played well into the character.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:25

It worked because you brought the essence, you brought the essence to it, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:30

But you know what? Was it Roy who would say messy acting? I think he did, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:11:34

Well, Roy said he said those moments allow for the magic. Yes, that was his thing. Was it if you just are open, the magic comes in. Things you did not plan all of a sudden show up, and you can use it. Use those moments for the magic to show up because if we are doing it by rote, we uh we don't allow the magic to come in, right? We don't allow the the uh unexpected. It's like, oh, oh, oh, wait a minute, I didn't even know that. And all of a sudden it it takes you to a different place. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:13

I I I don't remember, but I think you know, I you were blessed, you got to be with him for a while. I was just at the very end, very briefly, but it was uh I think he's the one that said, you know, stop, stop being so perfect, just be messy. I want you to be messy, and that actually has stuck with me my entire life. You know, the messes are actually, like you said, opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:34

So you know, and there is no perfect, perfect is boring.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:37

Well, perfect is cookie cutter, yeah, right? It's a cookie cutter, it's just you're just doing what everybody else is doing. And what makes you unique as an actor is not doing what everybody else is doing, finding your way, finding your rhythm, finding your like a like a a real fabulous song, uh, songwriter, um, uh folk singer, right? They're they're in their groove, they're not trying to duplicate anybody else. They got their rhythm. Bob Dylan has his rhythm. You may not like it, but he has his rhythm. Bruce Springsteen has his rhythm. Beyonce has her rhythm, and you as an artist want to have your rhythm, which separates you from the other actors. You know, it's not about you having gray hair, it's about what you do with that gray hair and how you come to life that some other guy who has gray hair will never come to life because he doesn't own himself, he doesn't own who he is. I want to know what do you love about acting?

SPEAKER_01 2:13:44

Oh man. I just think it's the most interesting art ever. Because here's the thing: as a musician, I can hide behind my instrument. Even as a vocalist, you can hide behind your voice. You have nothing to hide behind as an actor. It's like, okay, this is me, and this is like my interpretation. And uh, that's hugely challenging, I think. And I do think there's just a lot of technical stuff, getting the lines right, hitting the marks where you're supposed to be hitting the marks, making sure that you know it you can be heard, and there's just so many things, and developing real chemistry with someone opposite you in the middle of the moment, you know, and being spontaneous and going. There's so many things to it that you can never master it, ever. Never. So it's a constant challenge of like, let's see if I can get a little bit better. I'd love to master this. I just love that. And I also think storytelling is one of the greatest things on the earth. Going back to what we're talking about. Christ was a master storyteller, did more with storytelling than really just you know lecturing. And so, and there is so much truth we can say through a Great story. Um, I love that. I just love that, and I love trying to find my place in that storytelling process. So there's just a ton of things. What I going back to what we were just talking about, too, it's what I miss with some of the newer things because everything's so impersonal. Is I remember when we would well, Ivana's, for example, finish a great night of acting and a great night of study, and we would just go out and we'd go to Joan's in Hollywood and we would sit there till two in the morning just talking about acting, talking about the art, constantly wanting to know more and hear each other's perspectives. And I mean, I miss that. I really miss that. It's almost impossible to find. I still teach seminars and things from time to time. I do coach all the time. And I want to go out, and a part of me wants to just sit at Jones until two in the morning and talk about acting and how much you know, and people don't engage in that as much anymore.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:44

Well, I think it's bringing it back. I think, I think there's a uh we have to uh start to bring it back, start to encourage people to go back out uh post-COVID to get out there and understand that while Zoom is great, if you are in the city where the teacher is ha gives you the opportunity to show up, you need to show up and commune with the fellow with your fellow actors, because it is those moments after class where you bond, where you get edified. You know, when you come out of a of a great night of acting, you're in the class and everybody's cooking with gas, and oh my God, it's just electrifying, and then you are able to go and sit somewhere and just talk it out. You feel it's like it's filling your creative well. You you just feel as opposed to being in a class, it's really good, and then it's shut down, then it's over, and you have no one to share that moment with. You know, it's like, oh now I now now I'm back by myself. Yeah. We need community, we need to be with with people who are like-minded, who are striving for something, you know, it it's so important, and I think um that we have to start putting more attention to that again.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:06

You know what we also miss from that is it's we challenge each other. We sort of try to there's a there's a famous story about you know the top surfers in the world are part of a single group, and they surf all together all the time, and they're constantly pushing each other to be better and better and better, partly from their performance and then partly from you know vocally challenging each other. We miss that, you know. I remember sitting in all these classes too, where you're just like that was such good work, dude. That was such good work, you know, and it challenged me to kind of go, I want to do work on that level, you know, and and and that can be lacking too, you know. I am teaching at a studio acting right now, and I do like seeing that, but I don't know that that deep passion that I you and I had from those circles that we were in, it's hard to find that on that same level right now.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:57

It's the sharpening. Well, let me tell you something. We have it and we can share it. We we know what that is, so we can encourage others to do that. That's what I do. I encourage uh actors, come on, let's do this. You know, you can't stay where you are. That's not good enough. Let's go. You are you know, going back to the winning, you it's encouraging, um, it's having a competitive spirit that's not mean, that's not um ugly, but that helps you get to the other thing. Because if you book a really good job and I'm in the class with you, oh, I'm on fire. Mark, book that job. I gotta book a job as good as that job. And I think that's what a good acting class does for you. It's like if people are working, then you go, I'm in this circle. It's happening for me. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna, you know, I wanna do a scene like that. I wanna, ooh, let me go find a piece of work that I could bring in next week or the week after so that I can work on my craft and do whatever. I think that's a healthy, healthy competition is good. Um being around people who are always helping to lift you up. You know, we sharpen each other, iron sharpening iron. We want to keep that going. And I think as elders, because we're the elders now, is to continue to say to the youngins, come on, we can do better. Let's do it, get off of those, get off of the lines, get the lines done. You got the lines to do by tomorrow, and now we're gonna go to the other stuff. I mean, I hear stuff, uh young actors that I that I mentor that are that work for me, and they start telling me how you know someone didn't work on their lines. They only had two pages to to memorize, and they still were not off book. It's like how uh that is unforgivable to me. And and to me, the acting teacher or the acting coach should really call them out to say no. I remember Roy going off on somebody because they started to work on the scene with their script. And he said, Oh no, we're not doing that. He said, You you learn the lines at home, work on the rehearsal, and then come back. So we're moving on to the next one. And I think that's the teacher's responsibility to say, I do we're not letting you do that. We're not, you know, you no, no, no, no, no. Acting is more than the lines, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:20:28

I I I have my eyes open. I worked on newsroom with Sorkin, and Sorkin writes musically. Sorkin writes, you know, scripts that are supposed to be read at 90 miles an hour. So my very, very first day, it was it was um Jeff Daniels, Livia Mun, and me and another actor um at the table, all having a conversation. And I'm ready, worked on my everything, and as I'm going through my first take, I'm talking, I'm like, da-da-da-da-da-da. Um, da da da as going through my lines. And Sorkin from the far end of the studio screams, cut, cut, comes running over, comes into my face and goes, Don't you ever say I'm in my lines again. I write musically, and this is meant to flow. You do that, you screw up the entire flow, and you ruin the entire scene. Never again. I'm like, Okay, okay. And then Jeff, Daniels, afterwards, he he taught after we did that first setup and we're in our chairs. He goes, All right, I'm gonna have a little talk with you, I'll let you know. He goes, You got to learn this stuff at a hundred miles an hour, flawlessly, to where you don't make a mistake 50 times in a row. And so you can do it 100 miles an hour, 50 times in a row, just pull it back to 90 miles an hour, come on set and do it, and you're gonna be fine. He goes, but these lines, he goes, You get you got to get to the place to where you know these things so thoroughly, you can do whatever you want with them. But until you get there, you're never gonna be able to do a Sorkin script. And he says, he's taken that from to everything he does now. And it's true. It was eye-opening for me. It's just you know, it was what we're just talking about. That's that's when you start to become a good actor. If you're locked into the 101 stuff, like what's my objective again? What's what's the obstacle? What are my lines? I mean, any of that stuff, you're in trouble. That's why I said beginning of this. No, do your homework. Your homework's got to be so well done, you don't even have to think about it anymore. That's when the real great acting can happen.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:18

And be willing to let it go once you get it all in, you're just let it go. Because other people are gonna bring a different energy, and you can't hold on to it. Goes back to what I was saying about older actors, they have a certain way, they've gotten used to a certain way. Instead of coming on set and going, let's play. Okay, this this person has this energy. I'm gonna just flow with what they're bringing. I'm gonna, um you know, it's being a good tennis player, right? A good tennis player can can play with anybody on the court and and still win, you know, and not have a tantrum, but that's not how I play. And it doesn't make for good, it doesn't make for good production when you come on set and you are just rigid and you just do it. I remember I I I'll say this once uh we were we were casting for a um a web series, and so this uh the director I brought in, this actor that he knew he came in, and so I was reading with the actor, and the actor got so he goes, You're not reading it right. And he just had like a little meltdown in the room, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:23:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:30

So I stopped. I said, How would you like me to read it? Well, it's supposed to be like this, like this. I did it like that, and he still he was so in his head, yeah. First of all, yeah, the director brought him in. And here's the thing sometimes, directors will bring in friends as a courtesy. They know they're not gonna hire that actor, and the actor is so hopeful because they think, oh, the director brought me in, so I I must chew it.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:58

I've done this in a director. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:01

And so, and and it it puts the actor at a disadvantage because now they they feel that they have a performance and you're ruining that performance. Instead of just, let me just this is uh this is how we're doing it. I'm just gonna go with it and be open, which could then impress the director because they're now just playing and they go, Oh, I didn't see this actor in this light. So I just think we have to be willing to release our idea of what the the scene should be or whatever the movie should be, and just be in it and be present in it.

SPEAKER_01 2:24:40

So if you're reading lines because you think it should sound a sick certain way, you're you're screwed. Lines are never made to sound a certain way. You can't try to figure out what's the best way to say this line. That that has nothing to do with real acting. Because think about it, we don't do that in real life either. We say things it's like, I can't believe I just said that like that, you know. It it happens in real that's real people, that's real chemistry. Yeah, you know, there's been times when this happened not too long ago. My poor, a good friend of mine, his dog passed away. And you know, as we're talking, my mind drifted for a second. I was like, was I supposed to go to Whole Foods today? In my mind, and then I felt horrible guilty because he's telling me he just lost his dog and he's devastated. That's what happens in real life, and you know, of course, I'm connected. I was like, Oh my gosh, what am I doing? But that's what happens. Yes, our we're all over the place. There is no right way to say anything, nothing. Yes, yes, that's why you can't be trapped in that. You gotta let all that go. But again, if you've done all the homework and really worked hard with all the lines and got it down and you know, play with things, and when it comes time to really let it go and play, you can do that. You're prepared.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:49

How can an actor work with you?

SPEAKER_01 2:25:51

Mostly consultations right now, and that is on my website, beaworkingactor.com. There's a little bit of information about that. Um, I do work with actors privately coaching scenes and and uh or auditions, that sort of thing. I I still do a ton of image consultations, which is helping an actor to know what their types are, where they fit in, what their categories are, what makes them unique. I will tell them what look, this is what I see the minute you come onto my camera. This is what casting is going to see in terms of your essences. So these are the things that make you unique from others in your category. And then we can talk about how to create a niche and all that sort of thing. And I can look at materials and see are we are we in line, out of line with that kind of thing. So, and and then just flat out business advice. I mean, those are the three things I do pretty regularly. I do I teach at AFA Studios right now. Um, and that that's a really interesting studio. It's four working actors. When you study there, you get a different working actor every week. So you get four teachers a month, which is an interesting concept.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:52

What did you think of the interview? I think Mark is amazing. He was just dropping those gems. I would love to know your thoughts in the comments below. And while you're there, find me a coffee. If you can't find me a coffee, like, subscribe, and share this video with your friends. And don't go anywhere because we've got another great interview coming up for you right now to help take your career from finest covered to the finest top of the world.